100xOdds
Joined: Feb 5, 2012
• Posts: 1952
October 10th, 2016 at 8:00:20 PM permalink
normally 9/6 JoB = 99.5% if all vp is 1point = \$10 coin in

but if 1point= \$20 coin-in for 9/6 JoB, then it basically turns it into a 99% game?
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
Ibeatyouraces
Joined: Jan 12, 2010
• Posts: 9709
October 10th, 2016 at 8:03:17 PM permalink
Point have nothing to do with the game payback. FP 9/6 JoB is 99.54% regardless of anything else. Cash back ADDS to it.
100xOdds
Joined: Feb 5, 2012
• Posts: 1952
October 11th, 2016 at 1:08:00 AM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Point have nothing to do with the game payback. FP 9/6 JoB is 99.54% regardless of anything else. Cash back ADDS to it.

at \$10 coin-in per point, the theo loss is \$250 for 5k points.
at \$20 coin-in, the theo loss is \$500 for 5k points.

if \$250 loss = .5%, then a \$500 loss can be considered 1% for getting the same amount of points?
thus 99%?
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
Homelessnyc
Joined: Jun 1, 2016
• Posts: 84
October 11th, 2016 at 4:26:51 AM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds

at \$10 coin-in per point, the theo loss is \$250 for 5k points.
at \$20 coin-in, the theo loss is \$500 for 5k points.

if \$250 loss = .5%, then a \$500 loss can be considered 1% for getting the same amount of points?
thus 99%?

Ibeatyouraces answered it perfectly. The comps or cash back are not considered in the 99.54% payback from the game.

You have to seperate the game vs the casino
sabre
Joined: Aug 16, 2010
• Posts: 484
October 11th, 2016 at 7:04:13 AM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds

normally 9/6 JoB = 99.5% if all vp is 1point = \$10 coin in

but if 1point= \$20 coin-in for 9/6 JoB, then it basically turns it into a 99% game?

By that logic if you get 1 point for \$40 coin-in it's a 98% game?
If you get no points, does it become a 0% game?
Ibeatyouraces
Joined: Jan 12, 2010
• Posts: 9709
October 11th, 2016 at 8:19:03 AM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds

at \$10 coin-in per point, the theo loss is \$250 for 5k points.
at \$20 coin-in, the theo loss is \$500 for 5k points.

if \$250 loss = .5%, then a \$500 loss can be considered 1% for getting the same amount of points?
thus 99%?

Because you have to play more hands at the \$20 coin in level to achieve the same point amount as \$10 coin in this your expected loss will be more.
BobDancer
Joined: Jun 22, 2013
• Posts: 79
October 11th, 2016 at 8:25:01 AM permalink
Cost per credit is not the same as the total return on the game.

a 99% game at \$10/credit has the same cost per credit as a 99.5% game at \$20/credit.

One group in this discussion is looking at the cost per playing one hand --- in which case a 99.5% game is always better than a 99.0% game. That's not what the original poster was talking about.

On a personal note, I DEFINITELY use cost per TR credit in my decision of what game to play. (Actually cost/tier credit which is a different, albeit related discussion.)
Joeshlabotnik
Joined: Jul 27, 2016
• Posts: 943
October 11th, 2016 at 10:30:23 AM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds

normally 9/6 JoB = 99.5% if all vp is 1point = \$10 coin in

but if 1point= \$20 coin-in for 9/6 JoB, then it basically turns it into a 99% game?

Let's answer this the way it should be answered: there are two EV calculations, both normally expressed as percentages:

1. The inherent return of the game, played optimally.
2. The inherent return of the game, played optimally, PLUS the value of points earned, accrued slot club benefits, etc.

#1 is immutable. For 9/6 JOB, it's 99.54%, minus the cost of whatever errors you make. For #2, it's situation-dependent (not just casino-dependent, as casino benefits change as often as the weather). You may, for example, earn one point for every \$1 of coin-in, and it takes 1000 points to earn \$1 cashback or comps. The 9/6 JOB game's return is now 99.54% + 0.1% = 99.64%. If you play on a 3X points day, however, your return rises to 99.84%.

Furthermore, if your experience indicates that playing \$10,000 coin-in at that casino gets you a mailer with \$20 free play, that adds an additional 0.2% to your return. So if you played 9/6 JOB only on triple points days, and you played at least \$10K for the month, your return on that game is 99.54% + 0.3% + 0.2%, and you have now arrived in Positive Return Land. Also, you may receive free food offers, or free room offers if you're out of town. The value (TO YOU) of all that should be factored into your return as well.

It's hard to imagine a situation where you experience a subtraction from inherent EV, except for when you play the game badly enough so that your loss from that is significant.
BobDancer
Joined: Jun 22, 2013
• Posts: 79
October 11th, 2016 at 10:52:08 AM permalink
Quote: Joeshlabotnik

Let's answer this the way it should be answered: there are two EV calculations, both normally expressed as percentages:

1. The inherent return of the game, played optimally.
2. The inherent return of the game, played optimally, PLUS the value of points earned, accrued slot club benefits, etc.

Joe's answer is good with respect to the COST PER HAND of play, which was NOT what the original post was about.

If your goal in the Caesars system is to earn a particular status (Diamond or Seven Stars generally), you need to accumulate a certain number of points. Looking at cost per hand does not get you to the same optimal solution as looking at the cost per point.

The reason they give you different solutions is you are playing a different number of hands at 99% than you would be at 99.5% to earn the status. If you were playing one fourth as many hands at 99% (at \$10 coin-in per point), it could very well turn out that it's a better play to earn a particular status than is the 99.5% game (at \$40 a point).

If your focus is "I'm going to play one hour (say 600 hands)" then yes, you'll lose less over that hour playing 99.5% than 99%. If your focus is earning Diamond status at the least possible cost, you probably shouldn't choose the same game.
100xOdds
Joined: Feb 5, 2012
• Posts: 1952
October 11th, 2016 at 11:30:55 AM permalink
Quote: BobDancer

Cost per credit is not the same as the total return on the game.

a 99% game at \$10/credit has the same cost per credit as a 99.5% game at \$20/credit.

One group in this discussion is looking at the cost per playing one hand --- in which case a 99.5% game is always better than a 99.0% game. That's not what the original poster was talking about.

On a personal note, I DEFINITELY use cost per TR credit in my decision of what game to play. (Actually cost/tier credit which is a different, albeit related discussion.)

ahh.. yeah, that's what I was getting at... cost per TC.

@\$10 coin-in for 9/6 JoB, 1 tc would cost me \$10 x .5% = \$0.05.
at \$20 coin-in, it's a dime.

@\$10 coin-in for 8/5 BP, 1tc = 8 cents
@\$10 coin-in for 9/6 ddb, 1tc = also a dime but higher variance. (That might not be a bad thing, if you have the bankroll.)

You cant find \$10 coin-in 9/6 JoB on the east coast for CET.
best is \$10 coin-in 8/5 BP but it's \$10 denom!
what sucks is that every quad would be a w2g tax form. :(

And you will get a quad every 600 hands or so, on avg. :o
600 hands = 1hr for me.
That's going to be ALOT of tax forms if going for DiaD.
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)