Joker Poker -- WTF?
Ten of Diamonds | 2 of Spades | Joker | 8 of Clubs | 6 of Hearts
How in the hell is JOKER 6 is the proper hold?
All cards are unsuited, so no flush penalties.
Ten has fewer straight penalties than 6 (holding the 6 -- the 2 is a straight penalty). But you also have value in the wild RF holding a the Ten. But it still has the fewest penalty cards of all.
I just can't wrap my head around this stupid ******* game.
Seriously -- WHY???
Looking at the hand closely I see you do get more straights holding the Ten, but not by many, and you do have the four wild royal possibilities, but it looks like the biggest difference between the hands is that you end up with a High Pair significantly less times holding the Ten. Throw it all together, stir it up, and the 6 barely comes out on top. You can't play that perfectly.
To think of it another way: When you hold Joker-10, all cards 2-5 are useless to you. When you hold Joker-6, only queens and jacks are useless to you.
Interesting hand. I guess that's why Joker-6/7/8 beats Joker-10 in the basic strategy for KBJW. I haven't played much KBJW so it never occurred to me to wonder about it.
Perhaps, but understanding WHY is very helpful and important when learning AP or new strategies . It may be insignificant monetarily(hell, It probably cost him money thinking about it) but that's not the point. In the long run knowing why will be more valuable as it will help him to make better decisions in the future when he comes across an unknown holds.Quote: bobbartopI don't know that you're supposed to get hands like this correct all the time. It is SO close between the WT and W6. You could choose the 6, the Ten, or the 8, and not hurt your results at all. They're all three very close. I don't know that anyone can play the game perfectly on hands like this.
Looking at the hand closely I see you do get more straights holding the Ten, but not by many, and you do have the four wild royal possibilities, but it looks like the biggest difference between the hands is that you end up with a High Pair significantly less times holding the Ten. Throw it all together, stir it up, and the 6 barely comes out on top. You can't play that perfectly.
It's a puzzle and he wants to solve it.
My question is.... is it possible the software is wrong, I have found bugs. AAMOF on my program It says hold j8 however when you go actually look at the chart you see J6 5coin value =7.33 J8 =7.32 J10 =7.33
It seems to go by how Its numerically listed on the strategy chart.
Quote: bobbartopI don't know that you're supposed to get hands like this correct all the time. It is SO close between the WT and W6. You could choose the 6, the Ten, or the 8, and not hurt your results at all. They're all three very close. I don't know that anyone can play the game perfectly on hands like this.
Looking at the hand closely I see you do get more straights holding the Ten, but not by many, and you do have the four wild royal possibilities, but it looks like the biggest difference between the hands is that you end up with a High Pair significantly less times holding the Ten. Throw it all together, stir it up, and the 6 barely comes out on top. You can't play that perfectly.
Reading this the first time, wasn't sure how you'd end up with a high pair less frequently, but 5-spot's post cleared it up. I never would have imagined the Ace/King value decreases when holding Joker-10.
But yeah, I'm not quite so interested in playing absolutely perfectly...it was just bothering the crap outta me WHY Joker-6 is superior to Joker-10. There's another (non-VP) strategy that had something similar to this, but now that I've learned this "high card loses value b/c of straight" thing or whatever you wanna call it, the other strategy makes a lot more sense now. Hopefully I can use this down the road if there's some weird problem that requires this sort of info. Better to know WHY something works a certain way, than to just know it works.
Quote: fivespotIt's because you can't get full value out of your aces and kings holding Joker-10. They make high pairs, but sometimes they also make straights, and you lose the high-pair value. Holding Joker-6 there's no overlap between the high pair value of aces and kings, and the straight value of cards near the 6.
To think of it another way: When you hold Joker-10, all cards 2-5 are useless to you. When you hold Joker-6, only queens and jacks are useless to you.
Interesting hand. I guess that's why Joker-6/7/8 beats Joker-10 in the basic strategy for KBJW. I haven't played much KBJW so it never occurred to me to wonder about it.
Ah okay, that's making a lot more sense now.
I was always told it's because you have more straight opportunities -- but the real reason is because holding a 9 or T you lose the King/Ace value when you connect on a straight. The Ace/King is a necessity (not always) for Joker-10 hold, the Ace-King is a life-saver for Joker-6 hold AND the 2/3 acts the same as King/Ace regarding straight draws.
Quote: AxelWolfPerhaps, but understanding WHY is very helpful and important when learning AP or new strategies . It may be insignificant monetarily(hell, It probably cost him money thinking about it) but that's not the point. In the long run knowing why will be more valuable as it will help him to make better decisions in the future when he comes across an unknown holds.
It's a puzzle and he wants to solve it.
My question is.... is it possible the software is wrong, I have found bugs. AAMOF on my program It says hold j8 however when you go actually look at the chart you see J6 5coin value =7.33 J8 =7.32 J10 =7.33
It seems to go by how Its numerically listed on the strategy chart.
Yup, mostly wanted to figure out why. Not sure how or what -- but I bet sometime down the road some f****ed up problem is going to show up similar to this [and chances are I'll make the wrong decision!].
BTW, WOO lists them as:
1.468837
1.466871
1.466062
1.425116
For holding the *6, *T, *8, * only, respectively. (That's 1.468837 bets, not coins.) The 7.33/7.32/7.33 is because of rounding / not being precise enough.
EDIT -- And even if I don't use this new-found knowledge for anything down the road....well so what -- at least for now on when I play FPJP/KBJP, it'll help me remember the strategy [whether it's worth any amount of money or not]. But I'm certainly not going to chase pennies and make sure I'm 1000000% accurate, and that was definitely not the purpose of this thread. Like Axel said -- it's a puzzle and I want(ed) to solve it [even though I didn't really solve it].
Quote: AxelWolfPerhaps, but understanding WHY is very helpful and important when learning AP or new strategies . It may be insignificant monetarily(hell, It probably cost him money thinking about it) but that's not the point. In the long run knowing why will be more valuable as it will help him to make better decisions in the future when he comes across an unknown holds.
It's a puzzle and he wants to solve it.
I myself didn't understand, even though I accidentally answered it in my post. FiveSpot answered it much better than I did, and his explanation schooled ME.
I'm all for wanting to understand why things are the way they are, I didn't mean to sound like I was discouraging RS from seeking that understanding. I also find it a FUN part of video poker to learn fine points and understand the whys of them.
I agree, the more you think about the game the more you will be prepared when a problem hand comes up. I don't think people who are happy with memorizing a simple strategy will do as well.
Perhaps in terms of EV on that particular game or games in general, however people who are happy just memorizing a simple strategy are not ones who do well overall. Someone wondering. thinking and taking the time to research and ask questions like RS will be the ones who do very well and advance.Quote: bobbartopI don't think people who are happy with memorizing a simple strategy will do as well.
Quote: RSTd, 2s, *, 8c, 6h
Ten of Diamonds | 2 of Spades | Joker | 8 of Clubs | 6 of Hearts
How in the hell is JOKER 6 is the proper hold?
All cards are unsuited, so no flush penalties.
Ten has fewer straight penalties than 6 (holding the 6 -- the 2 is a straight penalty). But you also have value in the wild RF holding a the Ten. But it still has the fewest penalty cards of all.
I just can't wrap my head around this stupid ******* game.
Seriously -- WHY???
woah.. I would have just held the joker.
but then again, I have NEVER played JW b4.
I would have defaulted to DW strategy, thus holding only the wild card
Quote: AxelWolfPerhaps in terms of EV on that particular game or games in general, however people who are happy just memorizing a simple strategy are not ones who do well overall. Someone wondering. thinking and taking the time to research and ask questions like RS will be the ones who do very well and advance.
This is why a lot of people who used to play FPDW in its time are falling through the cracks now and crying about the video poker sky is falling. They had it easy. FPDW used to enjoy all the benefits and it was easy to learn and play proficiently. Now times have changed and they're too lazy to work harder and study the game harder. It takes work, it takes thinking, to succeed now. The trend will continue and more lazy players will stop playing, or just play for comps. There will hopefully always be room for players who work hard to profit. But the cream will rise to the top, and probably become a smaller percentage of players as a whole.
Quote: 100xOddswoah.. I would have just held the joker.
but then again, I have NEVER played JW b4.
I would have defaulted to DW strategy, thus holding only the wild card
Joker games are a different breed. Rarely will you keep only the joker, but occasionally it is called for. For instance a hand like this:
W Qc Jd 3h 2s, keep the Joker and draw four.
Quote: djatcI actually played some fpdw for fun last night. It is aggravating to say the least. All that learning strategy for 0.76% on quarters. Jokers would drive me insane if I had to play it again with such a low advantage. One mistake could cost you your ev.
FPDW for quarters beats working at McDonald's. But I don't know, if they're going to be paying $15 an hour in a few years, it might be better to fry french fries.
Quote: bobbartopFPDW for quarters beats working at McDonald's. But I don't know, if they're going to be paying $15 an hour in a few years, it might be better to fry french fries.
Even at jobs that are looked down upon, at the end of the day, one can relax and feel good about contributing to society. I'd honestly rather work fast food, or get paid under the table at some tough construction job, than grind VP for slightly more pay.
Quote: RogerKintEven at jobs that are looked down upon, at the end of the day, one can relax and feel good about contributing to society. I'd honestly rather work fast food, or get paid under the table at some tough construction job, than grind VP for slightly more pay.
Contributing to society is highly overrated.
Quote: RogerKintEven at jobs that are looked down upon, at the end of the day, one can relax and feel good about contributing to society. I'd honestly rather work fast food, or get paid under the table at some tough construction job, than grind VP for slightly more pay.
I disagree. What you do for work isn't who you are. I have no problems making money playing a machine.
And that's kinda the "myth" and what many people don't understand or get. It's why people like Blackhole are skeptical about such claims.Quote: bobbartopFPDW for quarters beats working at McDonald's. But I don't know, if they're going to be paying $15 an hour in a few years, it might be better to fry french fries.
The kind of people that would be happy with $15 an hour or in a position where McDonald's or whatever was even a consideration probably don't have the BR and mentality to sit an play FPDW / Jokers etc. Even if you had a start up bankroll you have monthly bills, entertainment etc. You can go long periods without Royals and premium hands. You have to have the faith and courage to grind out a FP machine day in and day out. I just cant imagine a guy trying to managing his money and pay his bills grinding away.
Someone who had the proper BR, mentality and perfect conditions would most likely try to find better opportunities.
