A few questions from a VP newbie

I've been playing Blackjack almost exclusively for 25+ years. I play recreationally, but with a mind to win. I've played video poker a few times, usually just to kill a few minutes waiting for a dinner reservation. I'm considering increasing my VP play for a few reasons:
1) To add a bit of variety.
2) To earn some points/credits (almost no value in BJ any more) playing what seems to be a nearly break-even game.
3) To be able to gamble with my wife. She'll never play table games, but will play a simple video game occasionally.

So, on to my questions:
1) I'd like to start simple with single line JoB. I prefer to play something simple and play it well. Are JoB games with good pay tables available on the strip at the $1 level?
2) I took a quick read of the VP guide on this site, and the strategy for JoB seems straight forward enough. But it seems like this is a game where I'll see long stretches of dwindling bankroll, and occasionally hit the 4OAK/SF/RF that gets me back in the game. Similar to the slot jackpots and much more volatile than BJ. Is that a reasonable expectation?
3) I'm assuming since the big payoffs are so rare I should be prepared to play a very large number of hands to make it a break-even game (which makes me think I might be better off with a multi-line game?). Reasonable assumption?
4) What's a reasonable starting bankroll if I want to play several hours of single line JoB at the $1 level (playing 5 coin max bet of course)?
5) The strategy says that if you have more than 2 unsuited high cards to keep the lower 2. Just curious as to the reason behind this. In VP rank doesn't seem to matter except between high (J-A) and low (2-10) cards, so not sure why the preference for the lower ranked "high" cards.

Thanks in advance for any feedback.

1: No.

2: With Jacks or Better it's a relatively low variance game, which is to say that most of the time you tend to be slowly losing until you hit the royal.

3 & 4: Assuming you find a 9/6 game and there's a reasonable slot club/promotions, I'd say minimum $20k for $1 single line for a long-term bankroll. For a few hours it depends on how fast you play, but I'd suggest $1500 at the $1 level. Multi-line will let you play a higher bet for the same swings (or the same bet for lower swings).

5: You can make more straights with lower cards. QJ is better than KQ because you can make straights down to 8 with the QJ and only down to 9 with KQ.

I was in a similar place, and was optimistic and interested in break-even or positive expectation video poker. acababb answered pretty well. For number 1, there's plenty of 99.54% JoB in Vegas- just not on the strip. The Bankroll he gave sounds about right- $20k for $1. Take note that this is about 5 royal flushes. When people say JoB is low variance, I think that's a relative term when compared to other VP. Per WizardOfOdds, the perfect JoB player will hit a Royal Flush every 40,000 hands on average. That's $200,000.00 coin in. That's 1 in every 50 hours of play. If you play multiple lines, the length of cycle decreases, but the variance increases. So on single line $1, expect to lose something like -150 an hour while pursuing the $4000 royal.

It's way better than slots. And if it's something you and the wife can do together, that's great too. I have a lifetime goal of hitting a royal, but I'm taking it pretty slow :-)

Depends what you mean by bankroll. But if you're just playing recreationally, I'd say you should have about 15-20% of the amount of coin in you wanna play or plan on playing.

A new player, maybe 400 hands per hour, at $5/spin, that's $2k coin in per hour. If you play 3 hours, that's $6k coin in. Should bring 15-20% of $6k, or about $1k. In my experience, this is also on the worst-case-scenario area. Most of the time you'll be fine with $500. But sometimes you'll just get absolutely crushed.


Might find $1 9/6 JOB at Luxor. But I doub you'll find it elsewhere. Maybe treasure island.

Quote: Rio481

But it seems like this is a game where I'll see long stretches of dwindling bankroll, and occasionally hit the 4OAK/SF/RF that gets me back in the game. Similar to the slot jackpots and much more volatile than BJ. Is that a reasonable expectation?

I have also found that getting your share or more Flushes and Full Houses get you back and ahead when the larger pays never show.

Quote: Rio481

4) What's a reasonable starting bankroll if I want to play several hours of single line JoB at the $1 level (playing 5 coin max bet of course)?

you can simulate this yourself if you can get java to work
I use firefox for it
http://www.beatingbonuses.com/simulator_java.htm

$1000 bankroll and 1200 rounds of play

$500 bankroll and 1200 rounds of play


for 1200 rounds
(I like 300 rounds per hour while playing with another)
Bankroll <> Risk of Ruin <> Prob Loss <> Prob Win
calculated values
1000<>0.42%<>65.77%<>33.73%

900<>1.2%<>65.77%<>33.72%
800<>3%<>65.78%<>33.71%
700<>6.59%<>65.81%<>33.69%
600<>12.84%<>65.88%<>33.62%

500<>22.43%<>66.12%<>33.38%

have fun!
Sally

Quote: abacabb

Multi-line will let you play a higher bet for the same swings (or the same bet for lower swings).

Quote: surrender88s

If you play multiple lines, the length of cycle decreases, but the variance increases.

Thanks all for the feedback.

Sally - really like the charts. It helps to visualize the potential win/loss.

One follow-up for abacabb & surrender88s. The two quotes above seem contradictory, or perhaps I don't fully understand. My gut tells me playing more lines at the same bet level would tend to even out the swings. Let's say I'm drawing to an unsuited K, J playing 10 lines. I'd expect a few of those lines to be garbage, a few to be pairs, and maybe a 2-pair. Overall I lose, but not my full bet. If I'm playing single line it's more of an all-or-nothing proposition with the most likely scenario being a garbage hand. The flip side is I'm playing a lot more $ in a given period of time. So my sense is that volatility decreases per $ played, but increases per hour played. Maybe that's really what you guys are saying? Thoughts?

Quote: Rio481

Thanks all for the feedback.

Sally - really like the charts. It helps to visualize the potential win/loss.

One follow-up for abacabb & surrender88s. The two quotes above seem contradictory, or perhaps I don't fully understand. My gut tells me playing more lines at the same bet level would tend to even out the swings. Let's say I'm drawing to an unsuited K, J playing 10 lines. I'd expect a few of those lines to be garbage, a few to be pairs, and maybe a 2-pair. Overall I lose, but not my full bet. If I'm playing single line it's more of an all-or-nothing proposition with the most likely scenario being a garbage hand. The flip side is I'm playing a lot more $ in a given period of time. So my sense is that volatility decreases per $ played, but increases per hour played. Maybe that's really what you guys are saying? Thoughts?

If you were to play 10 play 10cents for $5 a spin, you would have the same expectation with less variance than if yoy played single line $1 at $5 a spin.

If you played 10 play $1 at $50 a spin, you can win more or less, due to the tenfold increase in bet size.

Quote: abacabb

.

Your name is the blood code to Mortal Combat on the Sega Genesis... I know this because it's ingrained in my brain from when I was a kid.

...Phenomenal Name.

Quote: Rio481

One follow-up for abacabb & surrender88s. The two quotes above seem contradictory, or perhaps I don't fully understand. My gut tells me playing more lines at the same bet level would tend to even out the swings. Let's say I'm drawing to an unsuited K, J playing 10 lines. I'd expect a few of those lines to be garbage, a few to be pairs, and maybe a 2-pair. Overall I lose, but not my full bet. If I'm playing single line it's more of an all-or-nothing proposition with the most likely scenario being a garbage hand. The flip side is I'm playing a lot more $ in a given period of time. So my sense is that volatility decreases per $ played, but increases per hour played. Maybe that's really what you guys are saying? Thoughts?

Perhaps it's easier to see if you play some on a practice game. You can practice single line easily enough online, but for multiline one example site would be http://www.videopoker.com/r/harrahs/

With multiline you will commonly find 3, 5, 10, 50, and 100-line varieties (not to mention other types like Spin Poker). When I play, I tend to bounce between $1 and $2 on single line, which is $5 or $10 total bet per hand. However the bankroll I need for that supports me for playing 100-line at a total bet of $25.

On most hands your lows will not be as low as with single line, but your highs will not be as high either. The only way you will get the same payout for hitting 4OAK in single line is if you are dealt the 4OAK in multiline. With a $5 total bet on 100-line, being dealt 3OAK and drawing on 100-line will almost always net you about $20. With the single line you may just get $15 for the 3OAK, and sometimes you'll hit a full house for $45 or $125 for the 4OAK.

Your "good" hands in single line will typically be 4OAKs that you draw to which should happen once or twice an hour. Your "good" hands in 100-line will typically be dealt full houses, dealt 4OAKS, and dealt 4-to-a-royals which will only happen once every few hours.

MGM has a few $1 9/6 machines and Caesars will restrict you to 9/5. You'll find a few quarter machines that pay 9/6, but take note that they appear to give you basically nothing in terms of comps. If your wife likes older slots, NYNY's .25c bank is great... for newer slots, Cromwell. Cromwell's bank is great, it's got a good location and it's close to the entrance/exit.

The problem with VP is that you're very unlikely to see a royal (1.6% of your return) or a straight flush (.5%) in a session. You're looking at short term slot like returns if you don't see a 4oak (5.9%) in a session either, especially with the crappy strip tables. I can't speak for others, but I basically have to keep playing video poker until I hit a damn royal.

https://wizardofodds.com/games/video-poker/appendix/3/

And...
Low pairs are awesome.

Quote: abacabb

Perhaps it's easier to see if you play some on a practice game. You can practice single line easily enough online, but for multiline one example site would be http://www.videopoker.com/r/harrahs/

Thanks for the link. I tried out the 100 line JoB game, and was dealt 4OAK on the third hand. Sure is a good start to lock in 4OAK on 100 hands. Then about 20 hands later I drew to a RF. I have a feeling this isn't how it usually works . . .

But I can see how playing more lines will smooth out the swings.

Quote: Rio481

So, on to my questions:
1) I'd like to start simple with single line JoB. I prefer to play something simple and play it well. Are JoB games with good pay tables available on the strip at the $1 level?

I have a question for you. Why an interest in the Strip? You could "get your feet wet" downtown or in the locals market, and play for quarters or halves and get plenty of benefits. Just a suggestion.

By the way, I also suggest getting Dancer's Winners Guide AND some practice software.

Quote: RS

Depends what you mean by bankroll. But if you're just playing recreationally, I'd say you should have about 15-20% of the amount of coin in you wanna play or plan on playing.

A new player, maybe 400 hands per hour, at $5/spin, that's $2k coin in per hour. If you play 3 hours, that's $6k coin in. Should bring 15-20% of $6k, or about $1k. In my experience, this is also on the worst-case-scenario area. Most of the time you'll be fine with $500. But sometimes you'll just get absolutely crushed.


Might find $1 9/6 JOB at Luxor. But I doub you'll find it elsewhere. Maybe treasure island.

Luxor high limit bar probably still has it. TI has it for reduced points. Cosmo 100-play in the high limit room for 50c+ I think the min bet is only $12.50. MGM Grand 50-play Quick Quad unit in high limit, can bet 1 line 5 credits there.

As others have alluded to, options are better away from the strip.

Whatever you do invest the $10 in either win poker or our host's terrific software (honestly both are good) and play at the very least an hour on your phone with correction. You will save far more than the cost of the software and the value of your time. Most people play far worse than they think they do, and you just don't know unless you practice.

Quote: bobbartop

I have a question for you. Why an interest in the Strip? You could "get your feet wet" downtown or in the locals market, and play for quarters or halves and get plenty of benefits. Just a suggestion.

By the way, I also suggest getting Dancer's Winners Guide AND some practice software.

Pretty simple really. My wife has expensive tastes and prefers to stay at the nicer strip properties - mostly Aria. We accumulate quite a few tier credits with Mlife with hotel, spa, dining, etc. Makes sense to keep our points in one place. Also, she'd like to play but doesn't want to go off-strip. She has a friend who plays dollar slots at MGM properties, and we're planning a trip together this summer. I was looking for something with better return than slots for us to play together. What little I have played slots I remember just watching my money disappear rather quickly, with no strategy to speak of to at least keep me entertained.

From what I've learned with the little research I've done I'm thinking dollar VP is really something we'd only want to do as pure entertainment. Put $100 in the machine for a few spins to see if we can get lucky. Or maybe find a lower denomination realizing we'll sacrifice on the pay table but extend our play a bit. I don't think we have the patience to try to AP it - playing for hours on end waiting for the big payout. Nor are we willing to commit the bankroll. Blackjack will always be my AP game - at least that is until I can no longer find 3:2 games.

I do very much appreciate the feedback. Even just playing "for fun" I want to have a fundamental understanding of what I'm doing.

Quote: bigfoot66

Whatever you do invest the $10 in either win poker or our host's terrific software (honestly both are good) and play at the very least an hour on your phone with correction. You will save far more than the cost of the software and the value of your time. Most people play far worse than they think they do, and you just don't know unless you practice.

Absolutely agree with this. My primary game is (and will continue to be) Blackjack. I see people playing all the time that have no idea what they're doing at the table, essentially throwing away money. I have no reason to think VP is any different.

Based on what I've learned about VP the last couple days I doubt it's something I'll pursue seriously. But what you describe sounds very much like learning basic strategy for Blackjack - minimal investment to maximize playing time/minimize loss.

BTW - love your tag line. Has Nobody picked a running mate yet? I'd like to see Anyone But on the ticket.

Quote: Rio481

1) I'd like to start simple with single line JoB. I prefer to play something simple and play it well. Are JoB games with good pay tables available on the strip at the $1 level?

Yes. Treasure Island has it all over the place, Luxor has a bunch at the high limit bar, and there are a few Spin Poker machines in high limit at MGM where you can choose to play only one line (instead of the usual nine). (That last one might get you a few dirty looks if you do it during peak hours, when your $5/hand play is locking out people who want to bet $45/hand or more.)

www.vpfree2.com is your friend. It can answer lots of questions like this. It's inaccurate for many areas but the Strip is pretty well scouted.

Quote:

2) I took a quick read of the VP guide on this site, and the strategy for JoB seems straight forward enough.

It is. But there is a big difference between knowing the strategy, and executing it perfectly on a hand every few seconds for hours on end. Do not assume your error rate will be zero. Measure it using training software, in long sessions with error warnings turned off and plenty of distractions around, and after a few drinks if you plan to drink while playing. Most people who think they play JoB near-perfectly have an error rate in the 0.5-1% range, but with practice getting under 0.1% is realistic.

I recommend Frugal Video Poker, available for free at http://www.wolfvideopoker.com/FVP.htm - it is seriously old and crufty, but it's free, and it has features not available in other trainers that I use all the time. Video Poker for Winners is a slicker alternative if you want to pay $50.

Quote:

But it seems like this is a game where I'll see long stretches of dwindling bankroll, and occasionally hit the 4OAK/SF/RF that gets me back in the game. Similar to the slot jackpots and much more volatile than BJ. Is that a reasonable expectation?

JoB is the tamest video poker game widely available. 99.998% of the time, you are playing a game with expectation -2.5% and standard deviation of about two bets. The variance is similar to playing $10 blackjack... but playing it very very quickly, don't underestimate the impact of playing ten hands a minute instead of one. So more like sqrt(10)*$10 ~= $30 blackjack.

0.002% of the time, you hit a royal. It doesn't sound like you'll be playing enough to count on this happening. You will definitely not play enough hands to count on getting something close to your expected number of royals. So plan your bankroll around JoB being a -2.5% game with a jackpot possibility.

Quote:

3) I'm assuming since the big payoffs are so rare I should be prepared to play a very large number of hands to make it a break-even game (which makes me think I might be better off with a multi-line game?). Reasonable assumption?

Multiline is dramatically lower variance than single line for a fixed bet size. For example, playing $50/hand at 10-line $1 is about 1/5 the variance of playing $50/hand at 1-line $10. However, you will find it difficult to find full pay video poker in multiline low denominations, even more so than at single line.

Hi there,

I am a VP want-to-be player also. There is a lot of good information that you guys have given. I have two questions.
1. What is the most that you have lost at one sitting in VP and decide to call it a day?
2. Are there any good machines in L'auberge Lake Charles or Golden Nugget LC?

Quote: whodat

Hi there,

I am a VP want-to-be player also. There is a lot of good information that you guys have given. I have two questions.
1. What is the most that you have lost at one sitting in VP and decide to call it a day?
2. Are there any good machines in L'auberge Lake Charles or Golden Nugget LC?

Hey whodat... Your questions, while pertinent to you, are actually fairly erroneous to VP as a subject...

1) This is going to vary WILDLY depending on the reason for playing, the levels you're playing at, etc, etc. If someone is playing perfectly, but just for fun, they're playing a negative edge game and would expect to lose anyways. Then, what if someone is playing nickels and then someone is playing $5 units? The person playing nickels could have an AWFUL day and lose $100, where as the person playing $25 pulls could have a slightly poor day still lose like $1,000. So your question here is not specific enough at all. I could come back and say "Worst ever I've lost like $1k per day" but you have no idea if I was on a specific play, what denomination I was playing, etc... So the information is rather useless to you.

2) There's a website called vpfree2.com that has a search so that you can search ANYWHERE and it will tell you the best VP in the area. I'd suggest you take a look at that site and see for yourself the VP returns: http://www.vpfree2.com/video-poker/search

Thanks Romes. I want to try VP to earn comps mainly. I would probably be looking at $1 machines with multiple lines. The site link is great.

I can't seem to find any of the games listed on the vpfree2.com site for L'auberge. Also I don't see an Ultimate X poker on the website.

Quote: whodat

I can't seem to find any of the games listed on the vpfree2.com site for L'auberge. Also I don't see an Ultimate X poker on the website.

I simply typed "find ultimatex poker in casinos" in to google, and got the following first hit which breaks down UltX by state/machines: http://www.videopoker.com/gamesNearYou/

=)

Quote: Romes

I simply typed "find ultimatex poker in casinos" in to google, and got the following first hit which breaks down UltX by state/machines: http://www.videopoker.com/gamesNearYou/

=)

I just looked up Detroit and it's completely inaccurate. MGM alone has over 40 machines with UX. Only explanation I can think of, is it doesn't count those UX games that are on a multi-game machine. If this is the case, they only have 3 stand alone UX machines and they're in high limit.

Quote: Romes

I simply typed "find ultimatex poker in casinos" in to google, and got the following first hit which breaks down UltX by state/machines: http://www.videopoker.com/gamesNearYou/

=)

The videopoker.com list is pretty up to date as well. As for ultimate x, any intelligent casino will have at least a few machines. I would guess l'auberge would have 6 to 12 of them. They say 6. But they also have 22 All Star II machines (wow!) all of which should also have ultimate x on them.

Quote: tringlomane

The videopoker.com list is pretty up to date as well. As for ultimate x, any intelligent casino will have at least a few machines. I would guess l'auberge would have 6 to 12 of them. They say 6. But they also have 22 All Star II machines (wow!) all of which should also have ultimate x on them.

Superstar machines should have then as well.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I just looked up Detroit and it's completely inaccurate. MGM alone has over 40 machines with UX. Only explanation I can think of, is it doesn't count those UX games that are on a multi-game machine. If this is the case, they only have 3 stand alone UX machines and they're in high limit.

I'm incorrect. The three high limit machines are indeed multi-game machines. There are 4 (25¢-$2) and they're just around the corner from the video poker bar.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Superstar machines should have then as well.

Yep, I like superstars better a lot better too for vulturing. I wish the all star iis still used their programming bolts, maybe all star iis are more server based?

Sorry guys, I keep on forgetting to add info to my question. I wanted to ask what is the rate of return for those machines. The original site (vp2free) does not list the rate of return for the machines at LC.

Quote: whodat

Sorry guys, I keep on forgetting to add info to my question. I wanted to ask what is the rate of return for those machines. The original site (vp2free) does not list the rate of return for the machines at LC.

Jeez...

Quote: TwoFeathersATL

Jeez...

Did I say something wrong? I am just trying to get some info. If not, then no problem. The next time I go there, I will make a copy of the pay table and run it through the wizard site to get a rate of return.
I am just trying to increase my comps since lately my craps play has not been rated very high. Many people have suggested VP with its higher rate of return so I though I would explore this option. Please don't misunderstand, I am not an AP wantobe.

Quote: whodat

Sorry guys, I keep on forgetting to add info to my question. I wanted to ask what is the rate of return for those machines. The original site (vp2free) does not list the rate of return for the machines at LC.

Vp2free usually only lists the higher returning games.

Thanks Ibeatyouraces. So since vpfree2 lists those that have 98% or above, I would probably put the machines at LC to be 96-97%.

Quote: whodat

Did I say something wrong? I am just trying to get some info. If not, then no problem. The next time I go there, I will make a copy of the pay table and run it through the wizard site to get a rate of return.
I am just trying to increase my comps since lately my craps play has not been rated very high. Many people have suggested VP with its higher rate of return so I though I would explore this option. Please don't misunderstand, I am not an AP wantobe.

2F is our resident court jester, self-appointed. In other words, don't take his comment seriously; you're doing fine. Welcome to the forum. :)

Quote: whodat

Thanks Ibeatyouraces. So since vpfree2 lists those that have 98% or above, I would probably put the machines at LC to be 96-97%.

Most likely, but not necessarily. Sometimes, good machines aren't listed by others as they don't want the info public. Basically, if you go there, you have to scout them on your own.

Thanks BBB. I have posted here in the past in the Craps section and got shot down some by MustangSally :(. After reading some of your post, I gather that you like to play UTH?

Quote: whodat

Did I say something wrong? I am just trying to get some info.

Sorry Who, no offense intended.
Seriously, no offense intended.

I was still stuck on what's on second, and that's a different thread.
I was, am, still two steps ahead, and three steps behind myself.
It's a country dance thing.
Do you dance ;-?

Used to go clubbing now with a slightly bummed knee I restrict myself to dancing with the casinos

Quote: whodat

Thanks Ibeatyouraces. So since vpfree2 lists those that have 98% or above, I would probably put the machines at LC to be 96-97%.

Depends on the game. Outside of Vegas Strip, VPFree2 tends to restrict listing games to 98.9%+ or so. Games between 98 and 99% probably exist, especially at dollars.

Quote: tringlomane

Outside of Vegas Strip, VPFree2 tends to restrict listing games to 98.9%+ or so.

I don't think that's true any more. Just scanning the vpFREE2 index of video poker in the Gulf Coast states, I see a lot of sub-98.9% games even some as low as 97%. It's been my experience that they list whatever video poker players report to them as being playable or the best games in that casino.

http://www.vpfree2.com/casinos/by-region/gulf-coast.html