Beat Video Poker?
Right now I'm learning jacks or better strategy.
I will learn more depending on the pay tables of my local casinos.
I haven't done my scouting of the slots yet.
I have only ever played table games, thinking slots were for 'suckers'.
I'm trying to diversify, and in my research (books, radio, this site and others) I see some 'slots' are beatable. Right now I'm just looking into video poker.
Even at the best machines, I understand they are around 99% over the long run.
Is the only way to make a profit via comps / promotions?
What about progressive video poker machines? Is that even a thing?
I'm also a bit confused about ultimate x.
With the multipliers, does it make the game over 100%? It's seems like it would, but I realize in math and casino's, looks can be deceiving.
I see the wizards charts show the same 99% for ultimate X, So this May be a stupid question...
I see you can play at over 100% when in vulture mode, but that's a few hands here and there.
I know I will have to get all the pay tables to see if they can be beat. I will be doing that over the next week or 2. I want to make sure before I learn other strategies.
I realize I sound like a noob, and I am when it comes to slots.
I know I have a lot of work ahead of me, I'm in no rush. Slots are a foreign concept.
I figured some responses can help me learn at a quicker pace. Where and what to look for.
Any advice, ideas, suggestions or direction is appreciated, thanks.
IMO this is the problem with DDB: it has no good pay tables. It's my favorite game, but 9/6 is crap and 10/6 is too good to be offered at a denom that's worth playing.
1] Mailers -- You're playing a game where you expect to lose some small amount (9/6 JoB has a -0.46% EV), then get a bunch of free play offers back in mailers. This is likely the most common. For example, you might expect to lose $200 but you expect to get $1,000 in free-play coupons in the mail.
2] Progressives -- a base game [say video poker] might normally have a -0.46% EV...but if the royal pays out 5000 coins instead of 4000 coins [because other people have put $ in to up the progressive], then playing that VP game will be +EV [talking about 9/6 JOB].
3] Grind -- Some games along with promotions have a return greater than 100%. Most (all?) reward clubs give cashback or free-play based on play, for example, one chain near me has a 0.33% cashback. They might have a multiplier day where they have 0.66% cashback or 1% cashback (or more!), along with a promo to win a car, or win $10,000 at the end of a month or w/e.
Ultimate X basically works like this: You can make an extra wager on the game to allow you to have a multiplier. Say you get a winning hand of a flush, your next hand will be given a 9x multiplier or some kind of multiplier (a high pair wil give a 2x multiplier). Sometimes these multipliers are left behind from other players. Yeah, very few hands and rare to find. :(
Do they have casinos in Romanian?Quote: AxelWolf;) ....
Let's just worry about Video Poker right now, advantage play on slots is far more complicated.
Quote: Vlad3Tetes
Right now I'm learning jacks or better strategy.
Very good. Jacks or Better is an excellent first Optimal strategy to learn as there are many games where the strategy is close to JoB, so you basically play JoB strategy with some exceptions. Examples include, Bonus Poker, Double Bonus, Double-Double, Triple-Double funky super ultra-stupid Two Pair sucks poker...etc
Okay, the last one is not a thing..just not yet.
The thing about games such as Deuces Wild, and my personal favorite, Joker Poker, is that the strategies don't lend themselves well to other games because there aren't that many games much like them...other than Variants of those games themselves.
There are simply more games that are some spin on Jacks or Better, which makes it a prudent first strategy to learn.
Quote:I will learn more depending on the pay tables of my local casinos.
I haven't done my scouting of the slots yet.
Good, paytables are obviously very important, so it's good that you would focus on that. As far as slots go, just worry about learning an Optimal Video Poker strategy first and seeing if there are any Video Poker games you can play positively. I do suggest that you look for advantage slot plays, in time, but they are very complicated and you will spend more time watching (and taking notes) than you will actually playing, in the beginning.
Quote:I have only ever played table games, thinking slots were for 'suckers'.
They are for suckers, but they are also for advantage players, they're even for suckers making an advantage play without knowing it.
Quote:I'm trying to diversify, and in my research (books, radio, this site and others) I see some 'slots' are beatable. Right now I'm just looking into video poker.
Like I said, good starting point. For all but the most obvious machines, determining slot, "AP points," is an extremely boring (but occasionally very rewarding) process. Perhaps you should see if there are Video Keno progressives where you are from, do your math, push a button, drink lots of coffee (or alcohol, if free) and rack up those points while playing at a positive expectation. Variance is freakin' nasty on VK, though, so the less x/x you have to hit while at an advantage, the better for reducing Variance.
Quote:Even at the best machines, I understand they are around 99% over the long run.
I don't know where you are from, so I don't know if that is true.
Quote:Is the only way to make a profit via comps / promotions?
Could be, depending on where you are from. Also, focus on points multiplier days, for me, points multiplier days put a 98.44xxx% machine slightly over 100% before I even look at mailers or promotions. Shame it's only one day per week.
Quote:What about progressive video poker machines? Is that even a thing?
They are a thing, use one of the calculators on the WoO site and change the number of credits rewarded for the Progressive(s) as appropriate to get your new overall return. Beware of linked Progressives, stand-alone Progressives will have more value as you are the only one who can hit the Progressive because you are the only one playing it.
Let's say there are three other people playing a linked RF progressive and the increase in units won is 600 units, my value on that (assuming they are equally skilled players, and equally fast) is 150 units, so you do the math based on the additional 150 units, not 600.
Quote:With the multipliers, does it make the game over 100%? It's seems like it would, but I realize in math and casino's, looks can be deceiving.
Looks can be deceiving, for true beauty is found within, and the only beauty to be found on the Variance Nightmare known as Ultimate X is when people leave multipliers behind. Play five credits per hand in this situation, not ten, don't play UX otherwise unless you have Optimal Strategy down and it is the highest paying thing in the casino. Mistakes are easy to make, and again, just thinking about the Variance makes me a little queasy.
If you want to play a fun multipliers game that slightly increases the overall return (at least in Nevada, by law) compared to the Base Pay with not such a huge increase in Variance, play Super Times Pay. There are also no strategy changes with Super Times, the Expected Value of each hand simply is whatever it is multiplied by the multiplier value.
Quote:I see the wizards charts show the same 99% for ultimate X, So this May be a stupid question...
I see you can play at over 100% when in vulture mode, but that's a few hands here and there.
I know I will have to get all the pay tables to see if they can be beat. I will be doing that over the next week or 2. I want to make sure before I learn other strategies.
Yeah, vulture, that's what you want to do. I wouldn't play it otherwise unless it was the highest returning game in the casino by at least .5%
Quote:I figured some responses can help me learn at a quicker pace. Where and what to look for.
Any advice, ideas, suggestions or direction is appreciated, thanks.
Feel free to ask some more Video Poker questions, or Video Keno questions. You can even ask slot questions, but if you don't fully understand Video Poker yet, then I wouldn't get into worrying about positive slot plays, except the must-hit machines. The other stuff is just too complicated, and like I said, it's a lot of watching and very little doing...and you can watch someone play a machine for thousands of spins, based on a hunch, just to realize there's not much of anything there.
lolQuote: Mission146It looks like you're looking for a lot of direction, but fortunately, you've come to the right place!
Let's just worry about Video Poker right now, advantage play on slots is far more complicated.
Very good. Jacks or Better is an excellent first Optimal strategy to learn as there are many games where the strategy is close to JoB, so you basically play JoB strategy with some exceptions. Examples include, Bonus Poker, Double Bonus, Double-Double, Triple-Double funky super ultra-stupid Two Pair sucks poker...etc
Okay, the last one is not a thing..just not yet.
The thing about games such as Deuces Wild, and my personal favorite, Joker Poker, is that the strategies don't lend themselves well to other games because there aren't that many games much like them...other than Variants of those games themselves.
There are simply more games that are some spin on Jacks or Better, which makes it a prudent first strategy to learn.
Good, paytables are obviously very important, so it's good that you would focus on that. As far as slots go, just worry about learning an Optimal Video Poker strategy first and seeing if there are any Video Poker games you can play positively. I do suggest that you look for advantage slot plays, in time, but they are very complicated and you will spend more time watching (and taking notes) than you will actually playing, in the beginning.
They are for suckers, but they are also for advantage players, they're even for suckers making an advantage play without knowing it.
Like I said, good starting point. For all but the most obvious machines, determining slot, "AP points," is an extremely boring (but occasionally very rewarding) process. Perhaps you should see if there are Video Keno progressives where you are from, do your math, push a button, drink lots of coffee (or alcohol, if free) and rack up those points while playing at a positive expectation. Variance is freakin' nasty on VK, though, so the less x/x you have to hit while at an advantage, the better for reducing Variance.
I don't know where you are from, so I don't know if that is true.
Could be, depending on where you are from. Also, focus on points multiplier days, for me, points multiplier days put a 98.44xxx% machine slightly over 100% before I even look at mailers or promotions. Shame it's only one day per week.
They are a thing, use one of the calculators on the WoO site and change the number of credits rewarded for the Progressive(s) as appropriate to get your new overall return. Beware of linked Progressives, stand-alone Progressives will have more value as you are the only one who can hit the Progressive because you are the only one playing it.
Let's say there are three other people playing a linked RF progressive and the increase in units won is 600 units, my value on that (assuming they are equally skilled players, and equally fast) is 150 units, so you do the math based on the additional 150 units, not 600.
Looks can be deceiving, for true beauty is found within, and the only beauty to be found on the Variance Nightmare known as Ultimate X is when people leave multipliers behind. Play five credits per hand in this situation, not ten, don't play UX otherwise unless you have Optimal Strategy down and it is the highest paying thing in the casino. Mistakes are easy to make, and again, just thinking about the Variance makes me a little queasy.
If you want to play a fun multipliers game that slightly increases the overall return (at least in Nevada, by law) compared to the Base Pay with not such a huge increase in Variance, play Super Times Pay. There are also no strategy changes with Super Times, the Expected Value of each hand simply is whatever it is multiplied by the multiplier value.
Yeah, vulture, that's what you want to do. I wouldn't play it otherwise unless it was the highest returning game in the casino by at least .5%
Feel free to ask some more Video Poker questions, or Video Keno questions. You can even ask slot questions, but if you don't fully understand Video Poker yet, then I wouldn't get into worrying about positive slot plays, except the must-hit machines. The other stuff is just too complicated, and like I said, it's a lot of watching and very little doing...and you can watch someone play a machine for thousands of spins, based on a hunch, just to realize there's not much of anything there.
Quote: AxelWolflol
Was something incorrect?
I don't know, I din't really read everything. I'm sure everything you said was great advice.Quote: Mission146Was something incorrect?
How do the multipliers not make the machine over 100% on JOB with optimal strategy?
Are the multipliers factored into the expected return?
If a "normal" game has a normal expected return of around 99%,
How does the multi with multipliers not raise the expected return?
I hope a lack of understanding of this concept doesn't mean my slot play is doomed.
I'm used to simple math, +1,0,+2,-1,0,0,-2, etc
Quote: AxelWolfI don't know, I din't really read everything. I'm sure everything you said was great advice.
But OP's posting style makes me want to know where he is playing at. Not everywhere offers "Vegas Style" video poker.
obviously RomaniaQuote: tringlomaneBut OP's posting style makes me want to know where he is playing at. Not everywhere offers "Vegas Style" video poker.
The Plaza had a nice $1 10/6 DDB machine for a while that was really good with the cashback and promotions. This was after they became the new Plaza.Quote: AxiomOfChoiceIMO this is the problem with DDB: it has no good pay tables. It's my favorite game, but 9/6 is crap and 10/6 is too good to be offered at a denom that's worth playing.
Quote: AxelWolf;) ....
Are you flirting with me?
Quote: tringlomaneBut OP's posting style makes me want to know where he is playing at. Not everywhere offers "Vegas Style" video poker.
I'm not sure of the pay tables yet on the machines around here. I mentioned I never paid much attention to slots in the past. There are 3 casinos in my "area". (2 close, 1 far). I plan to visit all 3 this week and make an inventory to see if there are any opportunities. Thanks for all the comments. I will probably have more questions about VP once I scope out all the machines.
Be careful with that kind of talk or you may get suspended again ;) I think someone got suspended for asking someone on a gay date lol.Quote: Vlad3TetesAre you flirting with me?
I cant remember, but it had something to do with Ahigh.
Quote: Vlad3TetesWhat's a good number to look for on these VP progressives?
Depends on the rest of the pay table. I usually just estimate that a 4000 coin royal is worth 2% (more or less true in most games) and go from there. So if a base game has a 98% return you want a royal that pays double its normal value to be about break-even.
This makes a lot of assumptions (you won't change your strategy to account for the higher royal, the royal frequency is actually one in 40,000 hands, etc, etc) but it's usually pretty close. It's enough for a ballpark estimate.
Quote: Vlad3TetesThanks Axiom. It was 8/5 bonus poker progressive. It was I think there should be more opportunities on the machines tomorrow at casino #2. I hope so, or there may not be much action for VP.
According to https://wizardofodds.com/games/video-poker/strategy/bonus-poker/8-5/ 8/5 BP returns 99.17% with the strategy given, and the royal is 1.99% of that. So (assuming that it's a quarter game) you would be break-even once the progressive is a little over $1400, if you didn't change the strategy.
You should check the meter move rate. I assume its bad. You can then get an estimate how often this will be a play. Don't forget to add the players card if its cash back or you can use it to buy gas or gift cards possibly resealable things, or they send free play mailers and other things like slot tournament invites. If they have other promotions like drawings you can add that into the play as well.Quote: Vlad3TetesI made the first scouting trip today. I decided to go to the fancier casino. I saw a video where the Wiz said the nicer the casino the tighter the slots. So I wanted to get that one out of the way. Seemed true. The only good game was a bonus poker progressive, but it was barely over $1,000. What's a good number to look for on these VP progressives? The rest of the VP pay tables were atrocious. Tomorrow I go to the 2nd casino where I hope the slots will be better. It's older and not as fancy as #1. Walking around the slots for a couple hours, I see what little I really know about them.
We recently had a play that had. Extra on royals, cash back and comps, Weekly free play, drawings, tournament invites, rooms and other promos along with it. Not sure what it all added up to but its possible it was over 4%. Surprisingly It lasted a long time. they cut it down, but its worth probably 2% now but only on one machine that is high volatility and hard to get on sometimes.
