100xOdds
100xOdds
Joined: Feb 5, 2012
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February 9th, 2014 at 7:32:41 AM permalink
so i'm now forced to play slots or vp w/my $50 freeplay since my casino stopped allowing them for e-Craps.

best low limit is .50 8/5 JoB (97.3%).

since the double up supposedly has no house edge, why not play it every time? and keep playing it till you lose?
0% He > 2.7% HE

and is it really 0% HE?
you have to pick 1 of 5 cards to beat the dealer's card. 2 to win, 2 to lose, and 1 tie?
or does it not work that way?
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
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February 9th, 2014 at 7:36:00 AM permalink
deleted
"And that's the bottom lineeeee, cuz Stone Cold said so!"
tringlomane
tringlomane
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February 9th, 2014 at 7:55:04 AM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds



and is it really 0% HE?
you have to pick 1 of 5 cards to beat the dealer's card. 2 to win, 2 to lose, and 1 tie?
or does it not work that way?



It is zero house edge, but it's also zero coin-in, so it does you no good in trying to play out your freeplay. It just jacks up variance.

And no. All cards are randomly dealt in the game so if the dealer gets a two in the JoB double up feature, you'll never lose, the worst you can do is tie. If the dealer gets an Ace, the best you can do is tie. There will be some cases where all your choices would either win or lose.
Mission146
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Mission146
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February 9th, 2014 at 9:42:26 AM permalink
Quote: tringlomane

It is zero house edge, but it's also zero coin-in, so it does you no good in trying to play out your freeplay. It just jacks up variance.

And no. All cards are randomly dealt in the game so if the dealer gets a two in the JoB double up feature, you'll never lose, the worst you can do is tie. If the dealer gets an Ace, the best you can do is tie. There will be some cases where all your choices would either win or lose.



I generally agree, but that's not always the case. The Spielo GTECH machines give the dealer a card and the player two, one card will always win and one will always lose. 0% HE either way. The last $6.25 Flush I had I turned into $200, but then lost my will to push to $800. Still pretty good for s $1.25 initial bet, 9/5 JoB.
Vultures can't be choosers.
100xOdds
100xOdds
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February 9th, 2014 at 9:46:52 AM permalink
Quote: tringlomane

It is zero house edge, but it's also zero coin-in, so it does you no good in trying to play out your freeplay. It just jacks up variance.



I go back to the wiz saying in Craps to have come bets working during the passline roll.
the reason is that it's a lower house edge than 1.4% passline roll.

I take that to use a lower HE option everytime when available.


obvious stopping points at 'Double Up' is doing it the max times or if the next win puts you above $1200 (thus a w2-g).
How many times can you double up?

edit:
mission, wish my casino had one of those double up options.
and whats your opinion on using the double up option till you lose or max out?

oh, if I hit a $2000 Royal, try double up and lose, do I still get a w2-g?
or will the machine lock up on any win over $1200 thus not even give me a chance to play Double up?
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
sodawater
sodawater
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February 9th, 2014 at 10:18:23 AM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds

I go back to the wiz saying in Craps to have come bets working during the passline roll.
the reason is that it's a lower house edge than 1.4% passline roll.

I take that to use a lower HE option everytime when available.



Working come odds on a comeout roll lowers the combined house edge for your initial come bet. The reason being is that there's nothing "special" about a comeout roll, and having your odds off for the comeout is the same as turning the odds off for a normal roll.

It's true when playing a negative game, you should always use a lower house-edge option -- but only if you want to increase variance at a lower cost of expected loss. In negative games, you are essentially buying variance, so it makes sense to pay as little for it as possible.

For example, your expected loss is exactly the same for both:

A. $10 pass line bet, $ 0 odds.

B. $10 pass line bet, $50 odds.

The difference is you will get much more variance in option B, at a lower combined house edge, and therefore will pay less for that variance than if you had just flat bet.

Another way to look at it is that if you want to get $60 in play, it's much better to make a $10 flat bet and $50 odds than six $10 flat bets.

It's the same with the double-up on VP wins. It's free variance if you want it. You should take it if you wanted to risk that same money anyway because you will save on house edge. But only if you wanted to risk that money anyway.
100xOdds
100xOdds
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February 9th, 2014 at 10:31:06 AM permalink
Quote: sodawater

Working come odds on a comeout roll lowers the combined house edge for your initial come bet. The reason being is that there's nothing "special" about a comeout roll, and having your odds off for the comeout is the same as turning the odds off for a normal roll.

It's true when playing a negative game, you should always use a lower house-edge option -- but only if you want to increase variance at a lower cost of expected loss. In negative games, you are essentially buying variance, so it makes sense to pay as little for it as possible.

For example, your expected loss is exactly the same for both:

A. $10 pass line bet, $ 0 odds.

B. $10 pass line bet, $50 odds.

The difference is you will get much more variance in option B, at a lower combined house edge, and therefore will pay less for that variance than if you had just flat bet.

Another way to look at it is that if you want to get $60 in play, it's much better to make a $10 flat bet and $50 odds than six $10 flat bets.

It's the same with the double-up on VP wins. It's free variance if you want it. You should take it if you wanted to risk that same money anyway because you will save on house edge. But only if you wanted to risk that money anyway.



hm.. my thing is that after i play thru the freeplay, i use the winnings to play e-Craps.
but since 0% HE double up > bets with odds, i guess Double up is for me?

ie:
double up everytime in VP till i hit the max.
when i play thru the freeplay, cash out winnings (if any) and play e-Craps.
HE of e-Craps 3/4/5x odds is better than 8/5 JoB. (i only get the double up option if i win a hand at vp.)
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
tringlomane
tringlomane
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February 9th, 2014 at 10:51:54 AM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds

hm.. my thing is that after i play thru the freeplay, i use the winnings to play e-Craps.
but since 0% HE double up > bets with odds, i guess Double up is for me?

ie:
double up everytime in VP till i hit the max.
when i play thru the freeplay, cash out winnings (if any) and play e-Craps.
HE of e-Craps 3/4/5x odds is better than 8/5 JoB. (i only get the double up option if i win a hand at vp.)



It really depends on what final result you're looking for. Whether you double up or not, you still have to play 20 hands of $0.50 8/5 JoB at max bet to clear the free play, with each of those hands having a 2.7% house edge.

If you really don't care about the final result of any given set of free play, I'd find that 98.91% DW44 machine instead for $25/hand. It would return more money overall than repeatedly doubling up on 8/5 JoB. But if you always want some money returned to you to play ecraps with, play 8/5 JoB without doubling up.
100xOdds
100xOdds
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February 9th, 2014 at 11:10:38 AM permalink
Quote: tringlomane

It really depends on what final result you're looking for. Whether you double up or not, you still have to play 20 hands of $0.50 8/5 JoB at max bet to clear the free play, with each of those hands having a 2.7% house edge.

If you really don't care about the final result of any given set of free play, I'd find that 98.91% DW44 machine instead for $25/hand. It would return more money overall than repeatedly doubling up on 8/5 JoB. But if you always want some money returned to you to play ecraps with, play 8/5 JoB without doubling up.



lol.. 2 hands of dw44?
hm.. at 2hands/week, that's 104hands/yr of dw44.

you might be on to something.
THX!

hm.. just realized the $800 in comps i have accumulated on my rewards card only allows 32hands at max bet of $5 dw44.
wow. I've seen people in Vegas blow thru a $100 bill at .25 full pay dw (100%+) before they finish their cigarette. (and that's 80bets minimum.)

sidenote:
but i might just try to play thru that $800 this coming weekend when i get a mystery bonus freeplay.
im tired of having all that cash sitting there waiting for md live to offer a better redemption rate for points promo, like they do at Resorts World in NYC.

(a yr and 1/2 after md live opened and never offering better redemption rates, ive accepted that its never going to happen.)
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
tringlomane
tringlomane
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February 9th, 2014 at 11:18:39 AM permalink
I would think MD live is popular enough to not run a promo like that anytime soon. Actually I've never run across a casino ever offering a promo like that.

And yes playing $25/hand VP is very risky, which is why you should only do it if you don't expect a certain result from the free play. If you want to assure a higher minimum return, then you have to play lower denominations.

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