Joker in Pai Gow Poker: a card - or just a connector?

A hand on the Bovada question/complaint thread brought up an interesting quirk of the Joker in Pai Gow Poker.

A question arose as to whether the joker takes on a specific card value - so where you can have in existence a suited pair operating in the deck - at the time that it is used in a hand, or is it like a "connector' or fill-in putty, where the completed flush or straight is simpy "a completed flush or straight," not interfering with the card that could be used. If it is used to form a suited pair is in the same hand, it may be a clear non-starter:

The hand Ah-<joker>-Qh-Jh-10h is a Royal flush, and NOT Ah-Ah-Qh-Jh-10h - which is a flush that simply has a suited pair of aces, the way Bovada sometimes treats it.
So we can first assume you may not use it to create a suited pair in the same hand, as it acts like the King of hearts to complete the Royal, instead of making it a double Ace-high flush.

Now, if that Royal faces another heart flush, lets say it faces Kh-9h-7h-3h-2h, you now have a Pai Gow deal where a Royal "containing' the King of hearts beats a King-high heart flush, this time with the Real McCoy King of hearts. No conflict here. not in the same hand, or used for the same poker components.

So okay. We can make a rule that the joker replaces another exact card in the deck, but it cannot do so in the same hand, although it can face another hand that clearly has that card out in the open, without it being a "suited pair" issue arising. It sounds like a good rule, right?

But now, what about the hand 5d-5s / 7s-6s-<joker>-4s-3s. You now got a striaght flush with a pair of fives up, AND it is a perfectly valid Pai Gow poker hand.
And it has two 5 of spades in the SAME hand, one in the pair top, and one to complete the straight flush! Huh? Try to let someone tell you that the high side ISN'T a straight flush because the 5 of spades is used on the two-card said in the pair, and watch the arguments begin.

It isn't used in ther same side of the hand, that is, it is used within a different poker component or element. So in this latest hand, The joker may take on a unique value that isn't a duplicate within the same hand side, although it is within the same full hand; the 'joker 5 of spades" is completing a straight flush, while the real 5 of spades in completing the pair part in the same hand on the other side, and it's a valid hand, too. 5d-5s / 7s-6s-<joker>-4s-3s. This hand is valid. But think of the straight flush jpker as a connector or "flush putty,' and not as another 5 of spades.


Instead of the joker being "another 5 of spades," it is instead some sort of a "valid fill-in connector," with the Real McCoy 5 of spades not conflicting with it. The real 5 of spades is still simply that, but the joker is simply "magic putty" to fill in the straight flush card gap, and not another 5 of spades clone as it is just flush putty.
In practice it is: 5d-5s / 7s-6s-<flush putty>-4s-3s, and NOT 5d-5s / 7s-6s-<another 5s>-4s-3s

If you look at the joker as replacing an exact card, you will always have a suited pair in the single deck somewhere. If you look at the joker as a connector like magic putty that fillls in a straight or flush rather than "it is exact card 'x', you might be better off in handling the joker. It is essentially "valid straight fill putty" or valid 'flush fill putty" that doesn't so much take on a card value as much as it is a connector that fills the gap in the poker component that needs it, without needing to steal the identity of another existing card in the deck. Now the clause becomes: the joker (acting like putty) must fill in an available space in the straight or flush, and not a space already used by an existing card in the same poker element. The joker is a gap-filler, and not another copy of some other card, especially in the same poker element. It fills in a gap like a connector.

So when it is truly treated as a duplicate of another card within the SAME Poker element, a la Bovada (Ah-*Ah-7h-5h-2h) instead of (Ah-*Kh-7h-5h-2h), it is acting like a suited pair within the same poker element, a flush, an impossibility, instead of filling a gap like a valid poker "connector" had it filled the King spot as it should.

Which is why you cannot use it as a second suited card on the same hand side, as the Real McCoy ace was already there. The joker doesn't replace an existing card in the deck, it simply connects over an absent card putty-style, to complete an otherwise incomplete poker element. That's really the essence of the bug joker. In this sense the joker is not any sort of copy of the real card used somewhere else, it a connector for the poker element at hand, and only that.

Certainly, when used in five aces, it is the fifth ace of "no suit," Now here it doesn't replace any other card or ace, it's putty to fill in the five of a kind.

If we think of the bug joker as a "Poker element connector for an open slot," we'll always use it right.

Wow, I am amazed at how dense I am sometimes. Let me ask a couple of questions, maybe it will help clear it up for someone else too.

Quote: Paigowdan

you may not use it to create a suited pair in the same hand

There is such a thing as a suited pair? What is the significance of it being suited, if it is a pair?

Quote:

Which is why you cannot use it as a second suited card on the same hand side, as the Real McCoy ace was already there.

In a way I guess this is the same question twice, but surely there is no reason the top hand couldnt be ranked as a pair of Aces using the joker, as long as the other hand has a higher value? This must have something to do with declaring two cards as something that I have never heard of. You can't have Ad 5d in the top hand and say you have a flush. So what can a pair be other than a pair?

This why I think the damn joker should just be removed entirely from Pai-Gow Poker. So what if it adds umpteen percent to the house edge; it's simpler to know what your holding and how to set it without surprises caused by the unusual rules surrounding the Bug. In any game of Poker, it doesn't make logical sense to use a joker to represent either (a) a card that is already drawn and held in some hand or (b) a rank in a "fifth" suit when a French deck only has four suits. If a joker is restricted to being only a discarded, undrawn, or otherwise unheld card (a "transporter"), that makes more sense.

Quote: NowTheSerpent

So what if it adds umpteen percent to the house edge....

I do not think it adds anything to the house edge, unless the house gets the bug more often than a player.

I.E. It helps whoever has it the same as it helps anyone else when they have it.

Quote: NowTheSerpent

it's simpler to know what your holding and how to set it without surprises caused by the unusual rules surrounding the Bug...

If a joker is restricted to being only a discarded, undrawn, or otherwise unheld card (a "transporter"), that makes more sense.

These comments are contradictory.

If the value of the bug changes because someone else is holding a specific card, then that's a surprise too.



I was going to go with the "putty" argument, until I thought of the hand with 5 aces and a pair. You'd keep the aces together, therefore, you'd be playing two of a specific card.

Based upon that, I think the hand in question from that threasd about Bovada was correctly scored.

Also, I have voted "replace" although I would say "Replace or duplicate."

I believe there are only two reasonable ways to treat the joker:
a) Replace any undealt (discarded, etc) card, at player discretion, if such is applicable;
b) Any game with a joker is a N+1 deck game. A joker is an entire deck of cards, of which you can play any.

Generally the second one makes more sense. In older poker variants with a joker, there is such a hand as five of a kind.
The "connector" justification of otherwise arbitrary and chaotic rules is a bit too magical TBH.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

I do not think it adds anything to the house edge, unless the house gets the bug more often than a player.

I.E. It helps whoever has it the same as it helps anyone else when they have it.

Thanks. I hadn't done the specific combinatorics with a joker factored in and wasn't sure whether it made a mathematical difference.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Quote: NowTheSerpent

it's simpler to know what your holding and how to set it without surprises caused by the unusual rules surrounding the Bug...

If a joker is restricted to being only a discarded, undrawn, or otherwise unheld card (a "transporter"), that makes more sense.

These comments are contradictory.

If the value of the bug changes because someone else is holding a specific card, then that's a surprise too.

I just mean that I think the best poker (any, not just Pai-Gow) has no jokers, but if one insists on them, then the restrictions I described make the most sense, IMO.

BTW, When you refer to a "queen-high pai-gow" hand, what are the hallmarks of such a thing besides, obviously, the queen. What does the "pai-gow" refer to in the rest of the hand (if anything)?

Quote: odiousgambit

There is such a thing as a suited pair? What is the significance of it being suited, if it is a pair?

In multi-deck games suited multiples exist as play elements, in single-deck games, even with a joker, they're verbotten.
For example, in the Bust-it side bet for multi-deck blackjack, the bonus pays its jackpot on three suited 8's - a suited three of a kind.

Quote: odiousgambit

In a way I guess this is the same question twice, but surely there is no reason the top hand couldnt be ranked as a pair of Aces using the joker, as long as the other hand has a higher value? This must have something to do with declaring two cards as something that I have never heard of. You can't have Ad 5d in the top hand and say you have a flush. So what can a pair be other than a pair?

Game rules are arbitrary creations. The game designer creates - by fiat - the rules of a game based on what he sees as possible outcomes, while considering its possibilities. (and however, if the game designer leaves out some deep details, then the "house" or casino operator will create some arbitrary rules when situations arise). Hopefully, the more thought put into a game, the better. In the bust-it side bet game, the creator made a rule that the suited htree of a kind outranks a "same color" three of a kind, which outranks and off-suit, two-color three of a kind, when the dealer busts on three 8's.

As for the joker's existence in PGP:
1. the joker was used in some poker games by the point Pai Gow Poker was created at the Bell club in California, and;
2. the joker helps "unbalance" (or create more win-loses decisions) to counter-act the abundance of pushes.

The basic game of Pai Gow Poker was created by Sam Terrosian and Fred Wolfe at the Bell Club in the 1980's, and the casino version of it (along with Pai Gow "Asian" Tiles) was configured as specifically a casino house-banked pit game by William "Billy Woo" Walsh

Quote: NowTheSerpent

BTW, When you refer to a "queen-high pai-gow" hand, what are the hallmarks of such a thing besides, obviously, the queen. What does the "pai-gow" refer to in the rest of the hand (if anything)?

The term "Pai Gow" specifically means "No hand." In fact, in some Asian language, it actually means "nothing".

When you're at a PGP table, you will sometimes hear the other players chant something. I originally thought it was "plop-plop". I later realized that it was my American ears hearing the heavy Asian accent, saying "pai gow" - they were calling for the dealer to have no hand.

I heard it ("pai gow") means "makes nine," - which is also a nothing hand in Tiles.

In Pai Gow Poker, a Pai gow type hand has no poker elements aside from high-card singletons: Qd-Js-10h-7d-5h-3c-2c. Getting a hand like this is like sevening out at dice, the "Aww, sh]t, I shouldn't have bet black" flowing out of your mouth means you know you lost.

I agree with Serpent, the tighter the upfront restrictions the less fudge-factor there is in hand disputes.
I had players sometimes try to argue that the Broadway straight is "higher with the joker," - that AKQ<joker>10 is higher than AKQJ10 because it is "also is another Ace." Bovada thinking. No it isn't, both Ace-high straights are copies. When it's in a flush or a straight, the joker is not particularly viewed as "card x" (looking at it as a card replacement) as much as it "makes the straight or flush," by plugging the highest unoccupied gap in the poker element, looking at it from the point of view of completing a particular poker element. That's it.

However, the joker IS considered separately when looking at it bonus bet value, versus its hand-setting value.
The hand AA / AKQ<joker>10 is:
1. Four aces for the bonus payout, but
2. Just an Ace-high straight with a pair on top for the play-of-the-hand.

In other words, the hand's strongest poker element is four aces for the bonus bet's purposes, but it's strongest element is a straight - for the play of the hand's purposes.

Once I was playing Pai Gow Poker and one of the players referred to the bad (no pair) hand as a 'Cow Pie'. It was an amusing American twist on a meaningless Asian term.

The question I see in all this is what happens when the joker lands at the end of the strait? ie, 5,6,7,8,<joker>. Is this considered an 8 high strait or a 9 high strait?

It's considered a 9-high Straight; the highest (9) slot is available to fill out the straight.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

I originally thought it was "plop-plop". I later realized that it was my American ears hearing the heavy Asian accent, saying "pai gow" - they were calling for the dealer to have no hand.

I always thought it was "lop lop," although I can't seem to find anything which supports that theory.

Quote: JB

I always thought it was "lop lop," although I can't seem to find anything which supports that theory.

I've heard lop lop too, but I don't know any Chinese people to ask.

It could have been "lop lop."

But again, we're talking about American ears listening to heavy Asian accents....

Lop-Lop means headless roughly.

My interpretation of the Joker (Bug) in PGP:

The JOKER fills a Straight, Flush, or Straight-Flush as the needed card, else it ranks as an Ace: it ranks no better or worse than the card it fills. Thus there can be a duplicate of a particular card in a particular hand. If BOVADA or anyone else is changing this, I would not play there.

Ah-Kh-Qh-JKR-Jh-10h-9h

The JKR ranks as the 8h filling a 7-card Str-Fl, but split the hand, with JKR-9h in small hand, its an Ace, same thing happens when you split as Ace-JKR. Its simply a 5th Ace, not the same as any other Ace. I believe a * is used as the suit of the Joker... neither Club, Diamond, Heart, or Spade.

FWIW

Quote: 98Clubs

Lop-Lop means headless roughly.

My interpretation of the Joker (Bug) in PGP:

The JOKER fills a Straight, Flush, or Straight-Flush as the needed card, else it ranks as an Ace: it ranks no better or worse than the card it fills. Thus there can be a duplicate of a particular card in a particular hand. If BOVADA or anyone else is changing this, I would not play there.

Ah-Kh-Qh-JKR-Jh-10h-9h

The JKR ranks as the 8h filling a 7-card Str-Fl, but split the hand, with JKR-9h in small hand, its an Ace, same thing happens when you split as Ace-JKR. Its simply a 5th Ace, not the same as any other Ace. I believe a * is used as the suit of the Joker... neither Club, Diamond, Heart, or Spade.

FWIW

Exactly - it plugs the bottom of the 7-card straight flush. This is the monster hand, the holy grail of pai gow bonuses. jackpot.
played as a pair of Aces with a King-high Straight flush as the hand, though:

Ah-*JKR* / Kh-Qh-Jh-10h-9h

geez, I thought it was Paired 5-Aces... "only" 72 of them... nah, way too many ;o)

I thought that the joker had to substitute for a specific card not already in the player's hand. It could duplicate a card outside of it, even if in the player's 2-card hand, if the joker was used in the 5-card hand, for example. However, what gives me pause is that Fortunate Pai Gow Poker pays for Five Aces. In that case, does the joker become a fifth suit? Nobody ever questions it in video poker games like deuces wild, where wild five of a kinds are common.

This recalls an argument at a home poker game about 25 years ago. We were playing "baseball" where all threes and nines are wild. Somebody had a hand like A-9-9-3-3 and called five aces. Somebody else had a royal flush. The first player claimed victory, and the second claimed a split pot. The player with the royal flush said there was no such think as five aces because each 9 or 3 had to represent a specific ace, and there were only four possible, thus the best A-9-9-3-3 could would be a royal flush, splitting the pot. I took the side of the player with five aces, and think I was right.

So, I'm not sure how I'm supposed to vote in this poll. Perhaps it is just a matter of semantics.

Mike,
the suit of the fifth ace never is an issue when used as an ace with multiple aces, as when it is paired with other aces, the flush element or issue has to be absent. The five-card hand Ah-As-Ac-Ad-* is five aces, the joker the fifth ace of "no suit" as there is no flush factor formed by the rank pairing. You can't have a pairing inside a flush element, outside of Bovada.

The above hand Ah-* / Kh-Qh-10h-9h the joker is the bottom of the Ace-high 7-card straight flush for the jackpot and bonus, but just another ace in the two card side, no suit, just a pair of aces in the play of the hand. The argument above I feel is invalid because in pairing (up to five of a kind), suit restrictions are not a factor, as such pairings are "flushless," and are just pairs, trips, quads, and a five of a kind.

In San Diego and some of L.A., where the Pai Gow Poker convention has fully wild jokers, any rank can form a five of a kind: 8h-8d-8s-8c-* is five 8's, the fifth 8 of no suit, with suit again not a factor in that poker element. The joker also completes straight and flushes, but is often used in pairings since it now can pair with any rank, not just aces.

It is semantics, but since in single deck Pai Gow poker play its use is always a "plug" for a straight or a flush, or a pairing where the suit is not of consequence in any pairing, it's not some card's double, just a fill for some poker element 'x' and where full poker elements are compared, not cards. if it copies, then copy rules apply.

If the rules of 'baseball' don't restrict five of a kinds, then the five of a kind formed beat the Royal, but a gambler's argument was presented - to get the copy and the split pot. Where's a floorman when you need him? Gambling disputes are all of "MY point of view, what's best for me, that's what it is, I win!" - which is how people see and argue things in any discipline, not just gambling, where arguing and debate is a biggie.

Quote: Wizard

The player with the royal flush said there was no such think as five aces because each 9 or 3 had to represent a specific ace, and there were only four possible, thus the best A-9-9-3-3 could would be a royal flush, splitting the pot. I took the side of the player with five aces, and think I was right.

Anywhere I have ever lived you are considered a moron if you don't know 5 aces beats everything in poker, if wild cards are allowed, so you were right. This is just one of the things I don't like about using wild cards in home poker. Does this seemingly universal rule violate the principle that the highest ranking hand is the rarest? I've always wondered. Another bad thing about wild cards in the friendly poker game is that such is usually "dealer's choice" so it escalates the use of the tactic of calling a game the dealer feels he knows better than the other players. Knowing what kind of hands are likely to win is very important, I often see someone get murdered with a flush due to being unaware that the winning hands in many games are likely to be 4-5 of a kind, & straight flushes, while a full house is weak.

One good thing about poker on TV is that it seems to be re-introducing the "no wild cards" idea for home poker. I think this is also true of casino games [don't actually know] so that also is a good trend.

I would have to ask, how can the pai gow JOKER rank as say an 8c in the 2-card hand. As far as I know it can't. So its not "wild".
I make the decision that it can rank as only an Ace when in the 2-card hand.
"Bug" is the correct term for the pai gow "Joker" as it infers the Joker is "partially wild", needing a set of rules.

"Deuces Wild" infers complete substitution at any time, thus 2222A is "Four Deuces", "Five Aces", and a "Wild Royal Str-Fl". In video poker, Four Dueces (Wild) prevails. In home poker, it might be different. I guess "the House Rules" rules, unless Gaming Law prevails.

Sorry to be circular, but it leads us to the OP ? and previous thread discussion, The crux of the matter here seems to be how the "House" is interpreting the pai gow Joker, and if the "House Software" is functioning properly. In the 5-card hand there are no duplicates, though the Joker may rank as a duplicate to a card elsewhere in the deck. In the 2-card hand, I'll make the case that the Joker always ranks as an Ace, but of a 5th suit. Ultimately, it depends upon where the Joker is used. So if the hand is Ace-Joker-Q-9-5, the 5-card hand ranks as a pair of Aces: they are not identical, the Joker is "always" the 5th suit when played as an Ace.

If a House of Gaming wants to break a 5-card or 2-card tie by stating that the hand using the Joker wins (or conversely loses), I would not think that ruling is in the spirit of the game.

98Clubs

Quote: Paigowdan

The joker is considered separately when looking at its bonus bet value, versus its hand-setting value.
The hand AA / AKQ<joker>10 is:
1. Four aces for the bonus payout, but
2. Just an Ace-high straight with a pair on top for the play-of-the-hand.

In other words, the hand's strongest poker element is four aces for the bonus bet's purposes, but it's strongest element is a straight - for the play of the hand's purposes.

So, the joker is counted in such a way as to make its hand the strongest possible? How could these hands be scored with this joker in "ordinary" Poker, assuming any difference at all, and would a shrewd player so choose to score it?

I was about to ask if anyone plays Stud with a Joker. FYI: In Stud, suits are used to break ties.

Then I decided to go to a different source:

Quote: Robert's Rules of Poker

THE JOKER
1. The players will be alerted as to whether the joker is in use.
2. The joker may be used only as an ace, or to complete a straight, flush, or straight flush. (Thus it is not a completely wild card.)
3. If the joker is used to make a flush, it will be the highest card of the flush not present in the hand.
4. Five aces is the best possible hand (four aces and joker).

The joker becomes the card needed to complete the highest possible straight, flush, or straight flush. In the example, the joker becomes a 9 to complete the highest possible hand, a 9 high straight. If the 5,6,7,8 were suited the joker could be used as the highest possible card, ace of that suit for an ace high flush, but it would become the 9 of that suit for a straight flush, the highest possible hand. If you have a flush with a natural ace and a joker it becomes a second ace of that suit for a Double Ace High Flush.

As for Lop Lop, I have been dealing this game for almost a decade all our guests call it that. I have heard it called 'plop plop', 'blob blop', and 'a pai gow' occasionally, but never by a serious player.

Looking over this entire thread, a couple of things:

1. The use of the Joker in PGP probably derives from the desire of the game's creator to come up with a "western" version of Pai Gow (tiles), not a version of poker. In tiles, two of the 32 tiles are "semi-wild" -- they can have the value of either 3 or 6, but nothing else. (Or, if paired together, they form the highest-ranking hand possible, called "Gee Joon.") The semi-wild Joker in PGP always struck me as a pretty creative way to introduce the equivalent of the Gee tiles, as well as introducing a nice wrinkle of complexity to what would otherwise be a much duller game.

2. "Pai gow" does not mean "nothing," at least not literally. It is, as noted above, the actual name of the game commonly referred to as "tiles," which surely no one would dream of calling "nothing." I've heard it said that "pai gow" literally means either "tile nine" or "make nine" -- if you know the game, you know the significance of 9 as a total in it (and "gow" does mean "nine" in Chinese). "Pai gow" is used colloquially to refer to any seven-card hand that cannot be divided to make either hand a pair or higher. "Lop lop" is often used to mean the same thing. Some players have told me that "lop lop" is a Vietnamese term, though I can't verify that, and don't know what it would literally mean in either Vietnamese or Chinese.

The rules are straightforward enough in PGP where the joker is "semi-wild":

1. The Joker may assume whatever rank and suit necessary to complete a five-card straight or flush. Where it can assume more than one rank and/or suit, it assumes the rank and suit that produces the highest-ranking five-card straight or flush.

2. If the Joker is not used to complete a five-card straight or flush, it has the rank of an Ace.

It's up to the player to determine how he or she wants to use the Ace, and that choice is determined by how he or she sets the hand. It's up to the dealer to read the hand containing the Joker correctly; a player can always challenge how the dealer reads the hand in he or she feels the dealer isn't giving credit for the highest possible hand (for example, if the player sets the high hand: Joker-10c-9h-8s-7d, and the dealer calls it a 10-high straight, the player can point out that it should be a jack-high straight, and would be upheld). If the player misses a possible setting using the joker, he or she is out of luck (for example, if the player's seven cards are 10h-10d-Joker-jc-5c-4c-3c, and he or she sets the Joker and jc as the low hand and 10h-10d-5c-4c-3c as the high hand, making Ace-jack low and a pair of tens high, that is how the hand will be evaluated, even though it could have been set with the two tens as low hand, making a pair low and an Ace-high flush as the high hand. The player might protest that he or she made a mistake, but would in all likelihood lose the argument).

Note: If the Joker is not being used to complete a flush, its suit is irrelevant. For purposes of scoring a hand, one Ace is good as any other Ace (and no better). So if a player's low hand is Joker-10c and the dealer's low hand is As-10d, the hands "copy," and the win goes to whomever is the Banker.

pai gow means make nine in cantonese............lop lop means no hand


look chit means 6/7....it also means you have a small dick.

In our home game, playing baseball or other wild card games, we treat a royal, wild or otherwise, as the highest hand by house rule. 5OAK is next, by rank. But I can see it both ways. If I play with any of you, I'll be sure to have the conversation before dealing a wild-card hand.

Wherever I have played PGP, when completing a flush or straight flush with a joker, the joker stands for the highest card not otherwise in the 5 card flush hand. If that card is present in the 7 card hand and adventageously played in the 2 card hand (say it's a suited K in a 6 card A-high flush including the joker, and the 7th card is another King), you can legally play a flush with a pair. Happens so rarely, I can't imagine most dealers even noticing it, let alone claiming you fouled the hand, or that the joker had to be the queen because the king was in your hand. But then, I'm not sure I've seen a hand like that where it mattered; perhaps it would and I just don't know it.

Lah lah or lop lop with a very soft "P" is what the Asians I've heard call a junk hand.

Quote: ontariodealer

pai gow means make nine in cantonese.

I think: "Pai Gow" literally means "Tile Nine".

This actually came up at one tiny place a few weeks back-- the response was that it is a filler card.

In a flush: J753* is a J-high.
In a straight: 6475* is a 7-high.

However, it also can act to form the highest valued hand, if desired: Royal/Wheel...
which is where the explanation went weird. *KQJT is a nonsensical K-royal, which world lose to a A*QJT-royal.

Yeeeah.

deleted

The joker fills the highest card left available in the five-card hand.

Ah - Joker - 10h - 4h - 2h assumes the role of an AKT42 flush. It would beat an AQJ74 flush, and lose to an AKJ95 flush. There are never two aces in a flush.

Joker - 4s - 5d - 6c - 7h assumes the role of a 45678 straight, and would beat a 34567 straight.

3s - 4s - Joker - 6s - 7s / 5s - 5h still plays as a straight flush with 5s up.

Except if you have 2-3-4-5-joker, the joker is not a 6, it's an ace.

Quote: FinsRule

Except if you have 2-3-4-5-joker, the joker is not a 6, it's an ace.

Perhaps "best card available" would be more accurate then.

deleted

Not really related to the main topic (although I never thought about the joker in that way before), but I'm glad I finally learned that a nothing hand is a lop lop. I just knew it as a pai gow hand. Before, I was thinking that people were either saying "lob" (like a lob pass in basketball...meaning the cards missed the mark or something?) or "lock" (which I presumed to mean a virtual lock for the player to win or at least push).

Sorry to wake up an old thread but there was recently a disputed pai gow poker hand in Washington. The situation was akin to this:

Dealer: Ah, Kh, 8h, 6h, joker ( where h=hearts)
Player: As, Ks, Qs, Js, 2s (where s=spades)

The player argued he won the comparison, because the dealer's joker would substitute for the highest available heart not already used in the dealer's high hand, which would be the queen. So, the player's AKQJ2 would beat the dealer's AKQ86.

However, the casino argued that the joker substituted for another ace of hearts, giving the win to the dealer. I was told every dealer in the casino agreed with that ruling. In other words, the dealer had an AAK86 flush, which beats a AKQJ2 flush.

What is supposed to happen in this situation?

To add to this, I've heard second hand that Bill Zender was told the story of this dispute. He said most casinos would treat the joker as the Q queen of hearts in the above situation. However, he says he has known of some California poker casinos that have counted it as a second ace.

Has anyone else ever heard of such a rule?

Miplet, you're the resident expert on game rules in Washington, what do you say?

I am no expert but play a lot of Pai Gow
I always thought the Joker is either an A, a card to complete a straight and assigned whatever value that card makes that straight or just a generic suit with no assigned value to complete a flush
Now I am curious and will ask that question
Kink of sucks no standard rules
Some place low straight is the 2nd highest straight, some places, its just a low straight

Quote: terapined

Kink of sucks no standard rules

The state of Washington has official rules for EZ Pai Gow, but it doesn't specifically answer this question. It just repeats what every other sources does, that it can "complete" a flush, without saying how.

Quote: Wizard

To add to this, I've heard second hand that Bill Zender was told the story of this dispute. He said most casinos would treat the joker as the Q queen of hearts in the above situation. However, he says he has known of some California poker casinos that have counted it as a second ace.

Has anyone else ever heard of such a rule?

Miplet, you're the resident expert on game rules in Washington, what do you say?

Personally I would count it as Qh, but the rules are ambiguous. I think my local card room counts it as a second Ah. Maybe I’ll email the gambling commission, but they’ll probably just say it should be in the internal controls.

From WSGC Pai Gow Poker Rules

Quote:

2. The Joker card in Pai Gow may be used as an Ace or to complete a straight or flush. Standard poker hand rankings apply. Exception: In some Pai Gow games the hand A-2-3-4-5 ranks above a king-high straight, but below the ace-high straight A-K-Q-J-10. This exception must be documented in the card room’s internal controls.

Quote: miplet

Personally I would count it as Qh, but the rules are ambiguous. I think my local card room counts it as a second Ah. Maybe I’ll email the gambling commission, but they’ll probably just say it should be in the internal controls.

From WSGC Pai Gow Poker Rules

"Standard poker hand rankings apply."

There are not 2 ace of hearts in a standard poker hand. Case closed.

I would completely agree, but there aren't five aces in a standard deck either.

I do think the player should win the hand being discussed but would love to have a look at the procedures and policies for the game in question.

If I had to make the ruling, it would be Qh. It's a 5th Ace in the deck when used as an Ace and has no suit. Otherwise, it fills straights and flushes in the best position for the house.

Very interesting dilemma though.


ZCore13

I have closely reviewed Stanford Wong's book "Optimal Strategy for Pai Gow Poker" (2003) -but surprisingly, the book is silent on the interpretation of the Joker's "rank" when both the Joker and Ace are used to complete a flush.

I have played Pai Gow Poker in a number of states. I too am surprised that the Joker was not treated as Q queen of hearts in the above situation in Washington..

I don't play tons of pgp. Maybe 50 hours in the past 3 years. My initial response was that the dealer won with two same-suited aces, I didn't even consider that the player had an argument. I have no reason for that interpretation, it was just how I would have acted if playing.

That said, I completely understand both sides.

I have played several hundred hours of PGP, mostly in 5 different states, never in WA. (NV, CA, MS, NJ, NCL cruise ships)

I have never heard or even considered the Joker to be a completely duplicate card to any other whIle playing. (Heard it discussed here before. )

I have seen similar flush v flush situations maybe a dozen times. There was no question; it was the highest rank not in the 5 card hand.

A deck with 2 Ah would be a fouled deck. So why anyone would claim that was a legal composition is beyond me.

Has anyone ever seen the dealer set their hand as a flush with a joker without physically placing the joker in the position of the highest missing card? In about 2500 hours of playing time in MN, IA, IN, MI, MO, NJ, PA, NC, CA, NV, I have never seen that happen. I just can't imagine the dealer setting the hand up differently, and I really can't imaging physically putting the joker in slot 3 and then claiming it was an ace.

Quote: rdw4potus

Has anyone ever seen the dealer set their hand as a flush with a joker without physically placing the joker in the position of the highest missing card? In about 2500 hours of playing time in MN, IA, IN, MI, MO, NJ, PA, NC, CA, NV, I have never seen that happen. I just can't imagine the dealer setting the hand up differently, and I really can't imaging physically putting the joker in slot 3 and then claiming it was an ace.

My guess is they would not put it in slot 3. They would put it in slot 1 if saying it's another Ah. I can see how one could this k tbat way, although I don't agree with it.


ZCore13