Pat Jack placement in Biloxi

You may remember this game from the 2014 Cutting Edge TG Conference: https://wizardofodds.com/video/pick-em-blackjack/

The Golden Nugget is spreading the "Pat Jack" side bet in their weekend pit. If the player makes the wager they will effectively be playing a pat total of 18 against the dealer hand. As far as I can tell this the first placement of the game. Link below is the manufacturer's sizzle reel for the side bet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzrbZh9w2nQ

Would you play it?

What's considered their weekend pit? 6:5 BJ, 3:2 BJ, DD, 6D, CSM, single deck?

At least this will teach the players that the average hand in blackjack is ~18.3... when they realize they only have one way to win with 18 and can never get a blackjack, double, split, or surrender.

They have this game as a side bet at Canterbury Park in/around Minneapolis. It is as well as the normal BJ game, you can't play it alone.

I knew the original two UNLV student inventors/distributors had sold both Instant 18 and Pick'em Blackjack post the 2014 TG Conference (Pat Jack used to be called Instant 18 and I think the two UNLV students bought that game and then designed Pick'em BJ). Instant 18 had some placements in Vegas under that name.

So the buyers have re-branded the Instant 18 to "Pat Jack"? I am not sure what to think about "Pat Jack" as a name. Instant 18 is certainly more descriptive of the concept and a "Pat Hand" in blackjack is not a term that a novice/new BJ player is going to understand. That novice/new player appears to be a big part of the desired audience for "Pat Jack" (per their video), but that audience won't have any idea what "Pat Jack" means.

With "Instant 18", it is pretty easy for a dealer to say "your Instant 18 bet wins if your 18 beats the dealer". This is very subtle stuff for sure, but I believe important when rolling out a game to players that have never seen it or any concept like it before. I would have kept Instant 18 if my option was that or Pat Jack, but what do I know?

I personally found the video to be a bit... "Hey are you a player? Then NO WORRIES just put your money up and lose! You don't have to think. You don't have to act. You can literally not even pay attention to the game while we give you a sub average hand!"

Then 10 seconds later told casino execs "you'll have tons more profit off these suckers!"

Is that what most game placement videos are like?

Do BJ sidebet players have any interest in making a side bet that pays even money? Or whatever this may pay?

Quote: SM777

Do BJ sidebet players have any interest in making a side bet that pays even money? Or whatever this may pay?

Your implications are correct that side bets generally have bigger payouts.

However, this is not so much a side bet as an alternate standard way to play.

Put another way, consider craps place bets. The payouts are only a little better than even money, but, technically, they're side bets.

IMO weekend pit is that pit the casino literally only opens up when the house is busiest (most weekend nights and sometimes weekday holidays).

These pits almost always cater to ploppies and the less-educated gambling class so they carry tighter rules/more sucker bets.

Gotta assume this is going on a H17 table then--can anyone confirm?

Quote: ChefsSpec

Gotta assume this is going on a H17 table then--can anyone confirm?

I don't know but I compute HA to be 2.1% on H17, 0.7% on S17.

Quote: Paradigm

I knew the original two UNLV student inventors/distributors had sold both Instant 18 and Pick'em Blackjack post the 2014 TG Conference (Pat Jack used to be called Instant 18 and I think the two UNLV students bought that game and then designed Pick'em BJ). Instant 18 had some placements in Vegas under that name.

So the buyers have re-branded the Instant 18 to "Pat Jack"? I am not sure what to think about "Pat Jack" as a name. Instant 18 is certainly more descriptive of the concept and a "Pat Hand" in blackjack is not a term that a novice/new BJ player is going to understand. That novice/new player appears to be a big part of the desired audience for "Pat Jack" (per their video), but that audience won't have any idea what "Pat Jack" means.

With "Instant 18", it is pretty easy for a dealer to say "your Instant 18 bet wins if your 18 beats the dealer". This is very subtle stuff for sure, but I believe important when rolling out a game to players that have never seen it or any concept like it before. I would have kept Instant 18 if my option was that or Pat Jack, but what do I know?

How did instant 18 do? If it didn't do well, then I'd assume the rebrand was necessary to get placements with the "new" bet, which seemingly worked.

Quote: SM777

Do BJ sidebet players have any interest in making a side bet that pays even money? Or whatever this may pay?

I personally don't.

Quote: SM777

Do BJ sidebet players have any interest in making a side bet that pays even money? Or whatever this may pay?

Yeah that seems like a hard sell.. Maybe this the reason they call it "an additional primary wager" in the promo vid.

If it's at GN Biloxi it's hit 17. I believe the only s17 in Biloxi is higher limits at Beau and HR. Treasure Bay was all S17 until recently offering players an excellent value for low stakes, reports say they have recently changed to all h17 though.

Quote: ChefsSpec

Gotta assume this is going on a H17 table then--can anyone confirm?

TheoHuxtable,

Why are you talking to yourself in this thread? Please message me if there's a good reason for this and other ID'S you have on here. Otherwise, please stop making new member names or I will have to ban you. Thanks.

Quote: mrsuit31

How did instant 18 do? If it didn't do well, then I'd assume the rebrand was necessary to get placements with the "new" bet, which seemingly worked..

Getting initial placements could be a trap if the game could not work in the market place. No all placements are good placements: throwing more money after bad.... Let's just wait and see. I would not play this game.

Quote: beachbumbabs

TheoHuxtable,

Why are you talking to yourself in this thread? Please message me if there's a good reason for this and other ID'S you have on here. Otherwise, please stop making new member names or I will have to ban you. Thanks.

2 student inventors share the same computer to talk to each other, in the public?

Quote: beachbumbabs

TheoHuxtable,

Why are you talking to yourself in this thread? Please message me if there's a good reason for this and other ID'S you have on here. Otherwise, please stop making new member names or I will have to ban you. Thanks.

Edit. Theo has satisfied my request for the dupe id incident, thanks. He is not talking to himself. All is good.

Quote: UCivan

Getting initial placements could be a trap if the game could not work in the market place. No all placements are good placements: throwing more money after bad.... Let's just wait and see. I would not play this game.

I agree, but the fact that they got it back out, means the re-brand was a win. The funnier thing about it (if the wagers didn't do well and failed. I don't know the answer to that), is that the game was out recently in its old form if I recall. Interesting play to not at least wait a little longer to let the failed memories (if it failed) dissipate ad be forgotten.

And I hate to always be the one to ask this as always. But is this very susceptible to counting? I'm no AP, as I always state, but would this be a good bet under a certain true count totals? If so, like another game where you could bet on other players hands, this could simply be another way to disguise a larger bet spread by placing the wager instead of jacking up your base wager to high... Just a thought on that. The issue I had seen with the other game I referred to was that, instead of spreading your base game wager fro 1 to 5 units (or higher) you could simply increase your bet a few units and then place 2-3 (or more) units on every other player's hands, disguising your large spread. This seems to be an option with this wager also, IF IT IS COUNTABLE, which it may not be. Ill leave that question to you advanced math folks...

Game Names: It is sort of like the title of a book that a publisher agrees to print. The author has a title and likes that title, but unless that author is famous and has a good lawyer, it is the publisher that decides what the book title will be, not the author.

Seems it is the same way with game names. The casino can experiment but they have their own views as to catchy names. Standing Pat is a known phrase and therefore Pat 18 makes some sense.

I'm not going to get involved in splitting hairs over 'side bet' versus 'alternative primary bet' so I'll leave that to the dealer who explains the game to the ploppies.

An overflow pit is good to have: it lets the casino clean an area and keeps surveillance work load down but as the night wears on or the weekend approaches they can move chips into the area, open up bank covers, move in dealers, do deck shuffling if they still do it by hand, etc. All these things are fine but it does not define the 'weekend pit' as disadvantageous in any way. The games are whatever they are. A "party pit" usually is markedly disadvantageous, but simply a separate area need not be so. Opening up a craps table takes considerable time with dice and bank verification, the compass walk-around, etc., opening up a BJ table takes chip trays and dealers and usually a good stiff brush to groom the green felt. Keeping teh space free of crowds is an advantage but not a casino ploy.