Rumour about casino cheating on Shufflemaster games

Quote: boymimbo

It would be impossible to tell when the machine was in "beast mode" because the OP claims that "beast mode" only happens when there is a suspected AP at the table. I guess it's akin to VW telling its engines to run clean when it's plugged into an emissions tester. That never happens.

Does SHFL make clean machines? Absolutely. Is there source code possible to make it possible to have a "beast mode"? Absolutely. Would SHFL make any claim that it would give operators use of that code? Never. Does it happen anyway? Who knows.

Just because casinos make 0.2% - 7% off of every hand (depending on the game) doesn't mean it's enough. For a company like CZR who is hanging on a wire, rigging a slot machine or game to go from 5% to 50% has a direct impact on its bottom line.

A year ago, I would say "nah", impossible. But given what VW did and what online casinos are doing, and the technology behind SHFL machines now, I would say "anything is possible".

I'm in the camp of probably not, but certainly not impossible. If the FBI can find a hack to break into an I-Phone, someone else can find a hack to create a SHFL "beast mode".

Note - I am not attacking SHFL. They probably make a very clean game but it doesn't mean that it's not hackable.

I'm in the it's very doubtful camp, but, I have always rejected the... why would they risk their reputation, and they already have an edge argument. That's never stopped anyone

I just can't imagine some dealer or pit boss standing back there pushing a button every time they see an advantage player come along. They couldn't possibly keep that quiet for long, there's too many people that would have to be involved. Eventually someone would blow the whistle.

If the machine could secretly track and identify an advantage player itself perhaps it could cheat.
However, it's possible, if a team figured this out they could use this information against the house somehow.

Quote: gordonm888

I am not impressed with the situation in North Carolina. In setting up its gaming regulation infrastructure, I think that North Carolina has done the absolute minimum a state can do to meet the requirements of federal law. Given that the NC/EBCI Certification Commission actually did not meet for over ten years prior to 2011 and is currently composed of 3 people making $9-12K/yr and does not even have a website, I am personally not comfortable that there is effective regulation.

I love that you still keep relying on the certification commission's infrequent meetings as your reasoning for the ability for the casino to have gaffed table games equipment. The compact is very clear as to who monitors and approves this type of equipment, but you for some reason keep ignoring that fact and looping back to this. That in and of itself reinforces wizardofnothing's statements that this entire thread is one big pile of defamatory poopoo. Not just attacking SHFL, but the tribe, managing company and the government agencies as well.

Why not just call the tribal gaming commission, instead of posting here... We all know the answer to that.

I dunno.

VW risked it with their diesel engine, deciding to take the risk to put in software to change emission results. When I saw that level of tom-foolery in a major global corporation, nothing surprises me especially when dealing with cash transactions and a struggling company trying to make up for their stupid mistakes.

We know some online casinos cheat, even those that have been certified.

Corporations will mislead when they can and there is someone without ethics at the helm.

It would not surprise me completely if someone found a SHFL hack and found code that deals better cards to the dealer... somehow. Given that the machine can put cards in order, it would not surprise me.

I'm not saying that any casino is doing that, just that I wouldn't be completely surprised if they did.

Quote: boymimbo

I dunno.

VW risked it with their diesel engine, deciding to take the risk to put in software to change emission results. When I saw that level of tom-foolery in a major global corporation, nothing surprises me especially when dealing with cash transactions and a struggling company trying to make up for their stupid mistakes.

We know some online casinos cheat, even those that have been certified.

Corporations will mislead when they can and there is someone without ethics at the helm.

It would not surprise me completely if someone found a SHFL hack and found code that deals better cards to the dealer... somehow. Given that the machine can put cards in order, it would not surprise me.

I'm not saying that any casino is doing that, just that I wouldn't be completely surprised if they did.

In several games (of course procedure differs from facility to facility) the dealer gets their cards last... For example in FL while playing UTH, the dealer gets his/her two cards last. How would the machine know how many players were sitting at the table and wait to deal the best two cards to the unknown dealer position? Also in many places the dealing order for pai gow is still determined by dice, not an RNG... How would it be possible for the machine to know who is to be dealt first and reserve the great hand for the unknown dealer?

Also, as Axel said, if it was a "hack" that could be imputted in the event of an AP situation, it would be disgustingly obvious to anyone that they were jerry rigging the device. I have personally watched a machine get reprogrammed (not a SHFL shuffler) to deal 6 4 card packets when we installed my game at a facility. That simple task itself was a process. Imagine inputting the game genie code and then taking it out when the AP left the table...

This is just unrealistic.

To comment of the VW reference. They were eventually caught... Another fact that reinforces the question of why not write the comission and force them to investigate instead of posting on an online forum.

I have played Pai Gow Poker on SM shuffler. When I play, I play two hands. I refuse to play on the game at MD Live because I am not getting what I feel to be a representative amount of wins or pushed. Are they cheating? Probably not. Can the game be considered "slots" which will allow for the shuffler to be programed to return 91.7%. I don't see why not and in that case it can explain my losing streak.

Either way, since they do not let players bank or use the dice to decided where the starting hand is placed, I refuse to play their game.

If the cards are random, why do they use RND and not dice?

I have not heard a reasonable explanation on this.

If the "table games" with shufflers are considered "slots", then the casino can set the payouts as they fits. Not technically cheating but not fair either.

Casinos do and have used dice- it depends on the casino, in pai gow tiles dice are almost always used....
The rng for numbers makes ZERO difference , after all- it doesn't know who is banking - it could be dealer or player so that throws that entire argument out the window

Quote: AceCrAAckers

I have played Pai Gow Poker on SM shuffler. When I play, I play two hands. I refuse to play on the game at MD Live because I am not getting what I feel to be a representative amount of wins or pushed. Are they cheating? Probably not. Can the game be considered "slots" which will allow for the shuffler to be programed to return 91.7%. I don't see why not and in that case it can explain my losing streak.

Either way, since they do not let players bank or use the dice to decided where the starting hand is placed, I refuse to play their game.

If the cards are random, why do they use RND and not dice?

I have not heard a reasonable explanation on this.

If the "table games" with shufflers are considered "slots", then the casino can set the payouts as they fits. Not technically cheating but not fair either.

The Xaverian Brothers at Mt St Joe want your diploma returned immediately !

Quote: AceCrAAckers

If the "table games" with shufflers are considered "slots", then the casino can set the payouts as they fits. Not technically cheating but not fair either.

There are a few misconceptions here. First, it's generally the case that table games using physical cards and shufflers are taxed as table games rather than slots. It's the e-tables with digital cards that fall under the slot treatment, and that's usually only important from a tax standpoint (e.g., in Pennsylvania, slots are taxed about 3x the rate of table games).

Moreover, the casino can always set the payouts as they see fit. Going from 3-2 to 6-5 on naturals, or paying 30-to-1 vs. 30-for-1 on the boxcars bet, is "setting the payout". What I think you mean is "changing the probabilities," that is, the odds of the cards themselves. To my knowledge there are no jurisdictions anywhere that permit a game to be dealt from a 52-card deck where the probabilities of each card are not 1/52, at least not without disclosing that rule to the players so the math can be verified. In fact, most jurisdictions require that every game combination possibility be equally likely.

And to the extent that a jurisdiction requires those rules, it would indeed be cheating there to operate the game to the contrary. Cheating in Nevada includes altering the "method of selection" that determines the result or frequency of payout in the game. Secretly using the shuffler to bias the card selection would definitely qualify.

Quote: AxelWolf

I'm in the it's very doubtful camp, but, I have always rejected the... why would they risk their reputation, and they already have an edge argument. That's never stopped anyone

Been cheated more than once in one particular run at a blackjack table. Culminated when the dealer refused to follow my hand gestures at all, just dealt past me. I sued, and won some money in civil court.

It's as easy to get away with (in the long-run) as mocking, banning, and later making up stuff about posters who posted up unfavorable facts about a forum and its creators/sponsors. The herd mentality, I suppose, in the sense that people actually do it. Mob mentality.

When I see threads like this, and the same old rut of "why would they do that" responses, I have to shake my head and laugh. Some guys go on and on with all sorts of logic to back up casino innocence. Lol.

I guess that if I'm typing nonsense, then you guys really are right. (ME's m.o.)

Quote: MathExtremist

To my knowledge there are no jurisdictions anywhere that permit a game to be dealt from a 52-card deck where the probabilities of each card are not 1/52, at least not without disclosing that rule to the players so the math can be verified.

New York State's Class II slots include Video Poker where the payouts from the cards are well over 100% but the cards are not dealt at random, at all. It's deceptive if you don't know this, and there is nowhere on the VP machine itself where this is indicated.

Nonetheless, in games where the dealer gets dealt last it would be extremely difficult for a beast mode, and that includes PGP where the deal number is separated from the cards.

I know what you mean, and Washington's games work the same way, but in those games the cards don't determine the game result at all. It's just a display mechanism for the ticket value coming across the wire.

It's absolutely hysterical in New York to watch people actually debating which cards to hold and the ones who even waste time hitting the hold button when the result is exactly the same if you just discarded all 5 cards and redrew- you would end up with the same hand

Or at a minimum, the same value. It's funny to play the electronic pull-tab VP games and throw away part of a winning hand. Sometimes the game has to resort to back-bending machinations to display the predetermined award. E.g., you get 4 of a kind, hold only 2, then what? Usually it's a wheel spin or magic fairy or something.

Quote: MathExtremist

...E.g., you get 4 of a kind, hold only 2, then what? Usually it's a wheel spin or magic fairy or something.

Get dealt Kh, Ks, Kd, Kc, Ac and say "screw it, I'm going for the royal" and only hold Kc, Ac.

Quote: MathExtremist

I know what you mean, and Washington's games work the same way, but in those games the cards don't determine the game result at all. It's just a display mechanism for the ticket value coming across the wire.

First time I visited a washington casino I seen the paytable and got excited for a second but I knew something had to be wrong because it was similar to 10/7 double bonus but better(probably 2 on 2 pair). I ran it and IIRC it came back @ 110%. I knew even regulars would crush that fairly quick.

If the machine is really cheating, your source would be busy collecting evidence and blackmailing the casino, instead of going around telling anyone who would bother to listen.

And I had a problem understanding your logic: The casino or ShuffleMaster never made a claim that their machine is clean so they are suspicious. Everything is NOT illegal until they make a claim. So the casino is only breaking the law because they lied, and not because they use a cheating device ?

Quote: andysif

If the machine is really cheating, your source would be busy collecting evidence and blackmailing the casino, instead of going around telling anyone who would bother to listen.

Blackmail is illegal. I literally have never met anyone in my life that I think would be so crooked and stupid as to attempt to blackmail a casino. Is that something that you, andysif, would really consider doing?

Quote: andysif

And I had a problem understanding your logic: The casino or ShuffleMaster never made a claim that their machine is clean so they are suspicious. Everything is NOT illegal until they make a claim. So the casino is only breaking the law because they lied, and not because they use a cheating device ?

A wise person listens not only to what is said, they also pay attention to what is not said.

I am surprised, as a general matter, that the casino industry never advertises the kind of things that it does to assure that games are honest. Indeed, they apparently never even claim in any public statements that the games are honest. I am listening to what is not said, and it does make me wonder.

So, for example, I would think that Shufflemaster would simply mention, in public disclosure statements to investors, etc, that all their automated shuffler products are subjected to independent testing and certification. And I would think that Bally's would mention, in their corporate literature, that all the games in their casinos are subjected to extensive independent testing and certification to assure they are completely fair. These are the kinds of statements that companies of all kind routinely make.

Of course, the absence of such statements wouldn't necessarily mean that they occasionally cheat. But, I think its reasonable to ask if they actually do make such statements, Okay?

I have serious doubts about the legitimacy of the original poster

Quote: Wizardofnothing

I have serious doubts about the legitimacy of the original poster

I have no doubts whatsoever that he isn't legitimate.

A wise person listens not only to what is said, they also pay attention to what is not said.


My advice to you is

Quote: ernestmiddle

A wise person listens not only to what is said, they also pay attention to what is not said.


My advice to you is

Took me a moment. I was still listening.

Quote: ernestmiddle

A wise person listens not only to what is said, they also pay attention to what is not said.


My advice to you is

I saw what you did there..
Well, I saw one thing.
Did I miss something else?

Quote: Wizardofnothing

I have serious doubts about the legitimacy of the original poster

My father and mother had been married for several years before I was born. :)

Let me remind everyone that the Terms and Conditions of the forum forbid statements that are personally abusive. I am not the topic we are discussing.

Quote: gordonm888

Let me remind everyone that the Terms and Conditions of the forum forbid statements that are personally abusive. I am not the topic we are discussing.

You need to get your tetanus shots around here. A lot of BS flying around. (I think the gang here bit off more than they can chew.)

Quote: gordonm888

My father and mother had been married for several years before I was born. :)

Let me remind everyone that the Terms and Conditions of the forum forbid statements that are personally abusive. I am not the topic we are discussing.

Nice answer, very nice. Don't worry too much about WoN and others that have appointed themselves as non-official guardians here. Hell, he can't even get his GF to wear a brassiere that fits right ;-)

There were posts today on another thread that tied into the same subject ( your subject, not bra fitting ;-)
I Ike to watch the cards dealt. I am hesitant to play online 'cause I know how I'd be tempted to control the results if I ran that online game. I am suspicious even when I'm watching real time in person. So I'm still reading your thread.

If all the casinos watch the chatter here to figure out if they've screwed up their latest promotion, you'd think someone would step up with some definitive answers in defense of the shufflers. So far I've seen mostly reasoned, and reasonable, opinions.

But I'm slow. Maybe I should start reading again from the beginning....

Quote: TwoFeathersATL

If all the casinos watch the chatter here to figure out if they've screwed up their latest promotion, you'd think someone would step up with some definitive answers in defense of the shufflers. So far I've seen mostly reasoned, and reasonable, opinions.

Never were any casinos "on" any gambling forum. However, casinos can't get enough of their advertising on the forums fast enough, and precisely because they have no fear or interest in anything which might already be in there. I've seen particular online casino hosts introduce themselves, with offers, on a couple of forums; and have yet to see any of them in the discussions. Does even Zuga, who only carries the ads over, ever get otherwise involved? Doesn't look like it.

Quote: TheGrimReaper13

Never were any casinos "on" any gambling forum. However, casinos can't get enough of their advertising on the forums fast enough, and precisely because they have no fear or interest in anything which might already be in there. I've seen particular online casino hosts introduce themselves, with offers, on a couple of forums; and have yet to see any of them in the discussions. Does even Zuga, who only carries the ads over, ever get otherwise involved? Doesn't look like it.

You leave Zuga alone.
Yyyooooouuuu might be bad man, maybe a rascal. For a couple a bucks I'll tell you where you stand. Right now, and yesterdays, you are either one of the Avenger Series, or trying to pick a fight, based only on your writing of course . He He..
And twiddle dee dee, tweadle de dum, you don't really write like an Englishman.
Good sentence structure and punctuation, no doubt.
I just missed your point... I assume you had a good one... I know, I'm slow...

My .02 is that a casino and vendor would not want this "beast mode" option. If the shuffler could be made to produce the worst AP 6 deck shoes known to man, then they could also be programmed to make the best AP 6 deck shoes known to man. Opening up a pandora's box of risk and loss for the vendor & casino. Just my opinion, I'll go back to lurking.

Quote: TwoFeathersATL

You leave Zuga alone

Zuga isn't the one with the problem. The Wizard sold the site, apparently or not, gave up control, but didn't remove himself from it. A good way to end up totally dragged down in the mud.

I sense the ban hammer coming to this thread soon

Quote: Wizardofnothing

I sense the ban hammer coming to this thread soon

Too many secrets kills a forum.

I have called the Office of Indian Affairs in the North Carolina State government at 919-807-4440. I asked about the Certification Committee that is established in the NC/EBHI pact to approve casino equipment. I asked: Who are the appointed representatives and could I get some contact information?

The person answering the phone responded by telling me about the Commission of Indian Affairs and its various Divisions. None of the Commission of Indian Affairs divisions have anything to do with the casinos.

I explained again that I was referencing the "Certification Committee" that was authorized in the State-EBHI pact to approve casino devices such as video games and slot machines. I was told that she would have to research that topic further and get back to me.

Plausibly, I may have simply called the wrong NC State gov't organization. Or, it may be that the Certification Committee is inactive or operates with a very low profile. I will let you know what I learn.

To my vocal critics: I invite you to be constructive and advance the discussion on this thread by reporting any information you can find as to whether a North Carolina regulatory agency for casino gambling actually exists.

I would not label your efforts a 'Crusade'.
I say 'Nobel'.
Carry on.
I'm reading.

Quote: gordonm888

I have called the Office of Indian Affairs in the North Carolina State government at 919-807-4440. I asked about the Certification Committee that is established in the NC/EBHI pact to approve casino equipment. I asked: Who are the appointed representatives and could I get some contact information?
. . . I explained again that I was referencing the "Certification Committee" that was authorized in the State-EBHI pact to approve casino devices such as video games and slot machines. I was told that she would have to research that topic further and get back to me.

Plausibly, I may have simply called the wrong NC State gov't organization. Or, it may be that the Certification Committee is inactive or operates with a very low profile.

They may too busy expressing their sexual orientation, especially as the Justice Department moves against the state with all its power. They need all-gender bathrooms as of today.

If they had asked me, which they haven't, I could have solved this for them.
If you look like an attractive female, use the female restrooms.
If you you look like an attractive male, use the male restrooms.
All others are welcomed in the Porta-potties we have placed on the parking lot.
The Porta-potties are gender neutral.
Done.

Porta potties- hmmmmm see the website the dirty.com
Is this what you were referencing?

I can pass as an attractive male (maybe).
I can pass as an attractive female (maybe).
I can piss on the floor if necessary ;-)

Quote: TwoFeathersATL

I can piss on the floor if necessary ;-)

Just not in the cornflakes, please.

Quote: gordonm888

To my vocal critics: I invite you to be constructive and advance the discussion on this thread by reporting any information you can find as to whether a North Carolina regulatory agency for casino gambling actually exists.

North Carolina has criminalized commercial casino gambling so they have no need to regulate it. The Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians, which is the sovereign nation that owns the two tribal casinos in North Carolina, has a gaming commission. It's website is here: http://www.cherokeegamingcommission.com/

North Carolina state law does not, and cannot, supersede the rights granted to Native American tribes under the IGRA. There simply is no jurisdiction for North Carolina to enact regulations over Cherokee casinos, but for any affirmative agreement (compact) between the state and the tribe.

Quote: MathExtremist

North Carolina has criminalized commercial casino gambling so they have no need to regulate it. The Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians, which is the sovereign nation that owns the two tribal casinos in North Carolina, has a gaming commission. It's website is here: http://www.cherokeegamingcommission.com/

North Carolina state law does not, and cannot, supersede the rights granted to Native American tribes under the IGRA. There simply is no jurisdiction for North Carolina to enact regulations over Cherokee casinos, but for any affirmative agreement (compact) between the state and the tribe.

It's not that simple ME, NC law says they can't give me free drinks. Oh, oh, that's just what dem injuns told me. Sneaky Injuns. Damn, I've been had again!
272 x 2 red chips = $2700, not exactly pocket change (tip included, and most of them aren't all that cute ;-)
Depends on your tastes I guess, And I have not tasted any of them (official statement ;-)

Has anyone asked which lab certifies the games in NC? I would say with 99.99% certainty that it is either GLI or BMM. Maybe everyone that is skeptical should read their test requirements.

edit: post removed

I can't speak for how things work in NC, but here is a summary of how it's regulated in Oregon, from the FAQ section of the applicable Oregon state website:

"Class III gaming is regulated primarily by the Tribal gaming commissions and the Oregon State Police. To conduct Class III gaming a Tribal government must enter into a Class III gaming compact with the State and have it approved by the Department of Interior. The compact can allocate regulatory responsibilities between the tribe and the state. "

Quote: MathExtremist

North Carolina has criminalized commercial casino gambling so they have no need to regulate it. The Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians, which is the sovereign nation that owns the two tribal casinos in North Carolina, has a gaming commission. It's website is here: http://www.cherokeegamingcommission.com/

Thank you MathExtremist for posting this. This website is indeed the regulatory body for the North Carolina Cherokee casinos. It has many, many detailed regulations, which do indeed appear to be fully compliant with the federal regulations.

However, it is clear from this website that there are no regulations or controls on automated shufflers.

The Cherokees regulate "gaming devices," which are devices that accept money, chips or tokens and can issue a payout. "Other electronic machines" are regulated, specifically "server-based devices" for tracking game finances and "game surveillance equipment."

In the section titled "Table Games," there are requirements to keep playing cards wrapped while they are stored, and to discard playing cards after three months. But there is absolutely no mention of automated shufflers in the "Table Games" section - or any section - of the Cherokee casino regulations.

I checked the Minimum Internal Controls in the federal regulations established by the Office of Indian Affairs and it is the same thing - no mention of automated shufflers. Automated shuffler devices are a blank spot on the regulatory map for Indian casinos - I imagine they can voluntarily choose to regulate them, but the federal guidelines do not require that they be regulated. It is as if the federal regulators are ignorant of the fact that automated shufflers can read the cards and record the sequence of cards that are dealt.

Quote: gordonm888

However, it is clear from this website that there are no regulations or controls on automated shufflers.

The Cherokees regulate "gaming devices," which are devices that accept money, chips or tokens and can issue a payout.

Again, no. The Compact requires that "All equipment utilized in the conduct of live table gaming must receive approval and certification from the Tribal Gaming Commission prior to being placed into operation"

I presume you don't dispute that an automated shuffler would fall under the umbrella of "equipment utilized in the conduct of live table gaming."

Also, the definition of "gaming device" is not as narrow as you state. It is explicitly broader than that in the Commission's regulations:
"Gaming device means any equipment or mechanical, electromechanical or electronic contrivance,
component or machine, used remotely or directly in connection with any gaming which affects the
result of a wager by determining or predicting the outcome of such game or the odds of winning or
losing such game. The term shall be broadly construed to promote the purposes of this chapter and
shall also include any devices, machines, components or contrivances which do or are capable of
affecting, in any way, the playing of any gaming."

Now here's the interesting conclusion based on that definition. If a shuffler has "beast mode" and can affect the results of a wager by determining the odds, it is clearly a gaming device and must therefore be regulated. Based on the phrase "shall be broadly construed," I believe the intent of that definition would include automated shufflers in any event, even purely mechanical ones that can't read cards. I have first-hand experience working with gaming regulators in several states, and as a general rule any ambiguity in regulation language is resolved in favor of tighter, not looser, regulation. In any event, it is not an accurate interpretation of the above language to suggest that a gaffed shuffler would be allowed in a Cherokee casino without any regulatory scrutiny.

I'd like to put something up for consideration. Specifically regarding Pai Gow Poker Shuffle Master machines. These machines can not only read the cards and inform the user of card order subsequent to a deal of cards for verification purposes, but they can also take a deck of shuffled cards and unshuffle the cards and put them in the order that the originally came out of the unopened box. This is a programmable machine. I've been playing the Pai Gow table games at the Srminole Casino in Hollywood, FL for 8 years now. When the table games began back then the casino had a computerized random number generator that told the dealer where to place the first set of cards for each hand. I can personally attest from experience that the CRNG appeared to work in the casino's favor. There were constant streaks were the dealer had two strong pairs that yielded wins or pushes for the House and some streaks where the dealer would get the joker for 6 consecutive hands. After a constant stream of e casino did away with the CRNG and went with 3 dice. A much fairer option from the gambker's position. However, it does NOT go far enough. Even after the dice are rolled and the number is e cards are still in the machine. Recently I have started to see the same pattern of the dealer pulling mega-hands to the point where I sit down with tting the table minimum of ter 2.5 hours I will be down to my last $80. No matter how strong your hand the dealer either has a stronger hand or a bonus hand that negates your very strong hand to a push. In Pai Gow Poker, theoretically, the Casino's advantage comes from the fact that the copy hands favor the house and all winning wagers pay a 5% commission. In theory....over the long run this edge provides a substantial advantage to the Casino. However, if a bettor varies his betting the minimum when he feels he will lose a hand and increasing his bet when he thinks he has a stronger chance of winning.......you can achieve winnings of 10-15% of your bankroll on a consistent basis. This is only possible in a fair game where your not fighting the Shuffle Master motherboard.

Some advocates for the casino will say, 'but the casino doesn't have to cheat.' I disagree. The Casino's in Florida have a deal to pay the State an annual fee of $250MM. The State is also the regulator. I suggest this to be a case of the Fox providing oversight to the hen house. Before the Casino can address overhead expenses and/or profits, they owe the State of Florida $250MM, regardless of performance. I think the incentive to bend rules or cut corners is huge. The fair and straight thing to do is to push the button on the Shuffle Master machine....let the cards be laid out on the table in the seven separate groups.....and THEN roll the dice to determine where to start placing the cards.

Lastly, I have no hard evidence but I'd like to conclude with this thought. The U.S. government has drones flying in the skies above Yemen, Afghanistan,,and Pakistan. These drones sometimes carry missiles that are surgically deployed towards targets while the operator of this drone is located in an office in a strip mall in Arkansas or Kansas. My point is I called Shuffle Master a few years back and they confirmed that the Shuffle Master machine has a designed capacity for a wireless interface, I.e., the machine can be influenced/manipulated remotely. The gentleman on the phone went on to say that this is clearly stated in the patent for the Shuffle Master machine.

Food for thought, eh?

To start , did you see the Seminoles made 2.4 billion last year after giving the state theirs?

Secondly if they use dice how does the machine know who gets what cards- it can set however many awesome hands it wants there is no assurance they end up with the dealer- especially with dice

Bet the minimum when i think i will lose, but more when i think iwill win.

Gee, now you tell me.

Quote: onalinehorse

Bet the minimum when i think i will lose, but more when i think iwill win.

Gee, now you tell me.

What is that in response to?

Go back about 4 posts. You can win 15% per. Wdctf