Craps - Goodbye Boxman?
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April 17th, 2010 at 6:40:17 PM
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One thing I noticed during my last trip to Las Vegas was that several casinos (Green Valley Ranch being one of them) were having one boxman watch two craps tables. I can understand this during very slow times or when one boxman has to run to the bathroom and there are extra staff in the pit, but when asked, the dealers claimed that this was the norm.
I am guessing that this is a way to save money on labor, and with more dealers being dual rated (meaning they can both deal and work the pit), casinos are feeling that this is a way to cut costs.
Anyone else notice this? I personally feel that this will take away from the game and might lead to more cheating by players. It definately slowed things down when people were asking for markers or buying in for large amounts of cash. Other people's thoughts?
I am guessing that this is a way to save money on labor, and with more dealers being dual rated (meaning they can both deal and work the pit), casinos are feeling that this is a way to cut costs.
Anyone else notice this? I personally feel that this will take away from the game and might lead to more cheating by players. It definately slowed things down when people were asking for markers or buying in for large amounts of cash. Other people's thoughts?
April 17th, 2010 at 10:23:08 PM
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I have not been in LV for at least a half year. At Paris there was no boxman. The dealers said that it was the norm as the casino was saving a salary. There were several times that the game slowed as the dealers has too much to do. A boxman helps to run the game more smoothly and is there for the players as well as the house. There were many instances when I forgot to make a bet that I always made e.g. odds on the pass line bet. The boxman would allow the bet and pay as if it were there. I would rather have a boxman runnng the game and settliong disputes etc.
April 17th, 2010 at 10:37:56 PM
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Some of the locals casinos have something called a tub which is a very compressed craps table that looks like a (surprise) big tub. One person does every job. The game is very slow. However, there is a subculture of dice setters who thinks the smaller table size gives them an advantage.
I am always surprised that there isn't a cross between an electronic game and a real game where the only thing real is the dice. Either the dice could be sensed in their final position but I think it is easier the stickman simply keys in the results of the dice. The electronics would accept and pay the bets, but the stickman would still handle the dice. It would certainly cut down on errors, cheating, and the number of employees required to control a table. Of course, the keypad could be quite complex to handle all possible bets.
Craps is a distant 3rd in Nevada casino pit games behind Baccarat and Blackjack (but it is surpassed by roulette in major strip casinos). No one seems eager to give up on the game, but it does require a lot more manpower.
I am always surprised that there isn't a cross between an electronic game and a real game where the only thing real is the dice. Either the dice could be sensed in their final position but I think it is easier the stickman simply keys in the results of the dice. The electronics would accept and pay the bets, but the stickman would still handle the dice. It would certainly cut down on errors, cheating, and the number of employees required to control a table. Of course, the keypad could be quite complex to handle all possible bets.
Craps is a distant 3rd in Nevada casino pit games behind Baccarat and Blackjack (but it is surpassed by roulette in major strip casinos). No one seems eager to give up on the game, but it does require a lot more manpower.
April 17th, 2010 at 10:58:27 PM
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Quote: pacomartinSome of the locals casinos have something called a tub which is a very compressed craps table that looks like a (surprise) big tub. One person does every job. The game is very slow. However, there is a subculture of dice setters who thinks the smaller table size gives them an advantage.
I am always surprised that there isn't a cross between an electronic game and a real game where the only thing real is the dice. Either the dice could be sensed in their final position but I think it is easier the stickman simply keys in the results of the dice. The electronics would accept and pay the bets, but the stickman would still handle the dice. It would certainly cut down on errors, cheating, and the number of employees required to control a table. Of course, the keypad could be quite complex to handle all possible bets.
Craps is a distant 3rd in Nevada casino pit games behind Baccarat and Blackjack (but it is surpassed by roulette in major strip casinos). No one seems eager to give up on the game, but it does require a lot more manpower.
there is something exactly like you describe. its called rapid craps.
April 18th, 2010 at 12:21:21 AM
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Quote: rudeboyoithere is something exactly like you describe. its called rapid craps.
Thanks, I've never seen it. The shufflemaster blackjack is fairly common.
April 18th, 2010 at 12:35:50 AM
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I will never play rapid craps or any other type of automated machine. What fun is that? I can get the same fun from wincraps on my computer.
April 18th, 2010 at 1:24:59 AM
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Penny wise, Pound foolish. Most of the time the casino will save some poor boxman's salary but eventually they will be hit by an experienced dice team of cheaters.Quote: gamblerand might lead to more cheating by players.
I'd not want rapid craps either. Though a terminal with a "no more bets" lockout would make a box man unnecessary. I think it was Excalibur that fairly recently went all electronic in their poker room but then had to rip out all the electronic poker machines and re-hire human poker dealers.
April 18th, 2010 at 9:55:36 AM
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I wonder how they handle rating the players, with no boxman? I guess since they only punched up the rating every 15 minutes anyway, one boxman could do that on two tables.
Hmmm, see the box coming, up the place bets. As soon as he leaves, take em back down......
I have had quite a few occasions where the box has noticed incorrect payouts to me, both in my favor and in the house favor. It was always nice having that extra set of eyes on the table, plus that third person to help with any dispute that arises between the players and the dealer.
I have not played rapid craps, so I can't say for certain, but I don't think I will care for the game. I'm all for electronics and technology, but I like the human aspect of craps. I played one time at an electronic dealer poker table, and did not care for the experience at all. I can play at home, comfortably reclined in my favorite chair, and get almost the same feel of a game. At least the rapid craps game has zero bearing on the outcome, unlike the poker dealer or the electronic BJ game, where the outcome is determined by the software.
Hmmm, see the box coming, up the place bets. As soon as he leaves, take em back down......
I have had quite a few occasions where the box has noticed incorrect payouts to me, both in my favor and in the house favor. It was always nice having that extra set of eyes on the table, plus that third person to help with any dispute that arises between the players and the dealer.
I have not played rapid craps, so I can't say for certain, but I don't think I will care for the game. I'm all for electronics and technology, but I like the human aspect of craps. I played one time at an electronic dealer poker table, and did not care for the experience at all. I can play at home, comfortably reclined in my favorite chair, and get almost the same feel of a game. At least the rapid craps game has zero bearing on the outcome, unlike the poker dealer or the electronic BJ game, where the outcome is determined by the software.
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back !
Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
April 18th, 2010 at 10:15:11 AM
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Quote: RaleighCrapsAt least the rapid craps game has zero bearing on the outcome, unlike the poker dealer or the electronic BJ game, where the outcome is determined by the software.
Even then it's not completely fool-proof. The dealer who runs the game must enter the number rolled into the computer. Theoretically, he could input the wrong number by mistake--though I would hope the computer has an "undo" feature for those cases.
I walked into's Bill's (aka the Barbary Coast), where they have this monstrosity, and almost played it...but decided I'd rather play real craps instead. You're right that it's a game where the intangibles and atmosphere make it enjoyable. The dealers didn't look particularly happy to be running it either.
"I believe I've passed the age/of consciousness and righteous rage/I've found that just surviving was a noble fight...
I once believed in causes too/I had my pointless point of view/And life went on no matter who was wrong or right..." --Billy Joel
April 18th, 2010 at 10:57:50 AM
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Quote: OneAngryDwarfEven then it's not completely fool-proof. The dealer who runs the game must enter the number rolled into the computer. Theoretically, he could input the wrong number by mistake--though I would hope the computer has an "undo" feature for those cases.
But a mistake like this would be immediately spotted by every player on the table. It's not like there are dozens of transactions that each could have an error.
I imagine that this won't catch on. Once they have RFID in each of the chips it will cut down on cheating.
April 18th, 2010 at 2:03:36 PM
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It's not the same thing. Rapid Craps still uses real dice. It *may* be a boon for control shooters since there's no obstacles.Quote: gamblerI will never play rapid craps or any other type of automated machine. What fun is that? I can get the same fun from wincraps on my computer.
You're confusing the boxman with the pit boss.Quote: RaleighCrapsI wonder how they handle rating the players, with no boxman? I guess since they only punched up the rating every 15 minutes anyway, one boxman could do that on two tables.
The boxman traditionally is the one sitting with his arms above the rack, overseeing all the bets and payoffs. Yeah, he tells the pit boss what a new player bought in for, but other than that, I don't think he's involved in the rating process.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
April 18th, 2010 at 4:18:21 PM
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Quote: rudeboyoithere is something exactly like you describe. its called rapid craps.
I've never seena tub, but I understand it's a half-sized but otherwise regular craps game. About half as many players fit in, which lessens the workload, and I understand there are chirs for the players. But it uses a felt layout where chips are placed.
Rapid craps, on the other hand, is nearly full size, but the bets are placed on screens rather than on the table. There was a thread about it not too long ago. Far as I know the only rapid craps table in Vegas is at Bill's Gambling Hall.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
April 18th, 2010 at 6:04:42 PM
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Quote: DJTeddyBear
You're confusing the boxman with the pit boss.
The boxman traditionally is the one sitting with his arms above the rack, overseeing all the bets and payoffs. Yeah, he tells the pit boss what a new player bought in for, but other than that, I don't think he's involved in the rating process.
I am 95% certain it has been the box punching in the ratings at the Harrah's properties. They have it computerized, and I could swear it was the box who was inputting the numbers.
Beau Rivage is still doing the rating with pen and paper, but again, I am pretty sure it was the box doing the rating. I am headed there in another week, so I will check my way too faulty memory.
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back !
Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
April 18th, 2010 at 6:20:57 PM
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The way I described it is how I've seen it in CT, and how I saw it this past weekend in AC. Perhaps other areas do it differently.Quote: RaleighCrapsI am 95% certain it has been the box punching in the ratings...
I called ShuffleMaster on Friday to ask if there were any in AC. Nope. My point is, go ahead and call!Quote: NareedFar as I know the only rapid craps table in Vegas is at Bill's Gambling Hall.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
May 3rd, 2010 at 9:30:05 PM
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"I am always surprised that there isn't a cross between an electronic game and a real game where the only thing real is the dice"
You might want to check out Rapid Craps at Bill's on the strip? Please let me know what you think as I am normally a slot player and the tables are daunting for us first timers. For me this was a cross between a slot machine and a table game. We threw real dice, I go to sit down and learn how to play yet placed my bet on a terminal.
You might want to check out Rapid Craps at Bill's on the strip? Please let me know what you think as I am normally a slot player and the tables are daunting for us first timers. For me this was a cross between a slot machine and a table game. We threw real dice, I go to sit down and learn how to play yet placed my bet on a terminal.
May 3rd, 2010 at 10:21:37 PM
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There is a game being tested at the Wynn called Rock 'n Roll Dice which is essentially a very limited craps game. You don't throw the dice, you shake them, and you sit at a table. As a proprietary game it uses the terminology of "jukebox" since it makes it easier to enforce the patent. The most successful proprietary game ever invented is 3-card-poker, but the copyright is difficult to enforce online because it uses generic names for bets.
Wizard of Odds Craps will give you a chance to experiment with the game and the bets before you try it in a casino. You just need to google a few sites on behavior, protocol, and slang. The most important thing is the one hand rule. If you want to look like you are setting the dice then set them on the felt, and roll them with one hand until there are two fours up (if you are trying to hit an 8). Throw the dice in a way that you are trying to keep them level until they hit the back wall and say "Come on hard 8". The other players appreciate the fact that it looks like you are trying to win money for them.
Wizard of Odds Craps will give you a chance to experiment with the game and the bets before you try it in a casino. You just need to google a few sites on behavior, protocol, and slang. The most important thing is the one hand rule. If you want to look like you are setting the dice then set them on the felt, and roll them with one hand until there are two fours up (if you are trying to hit an 8). Throw the dice in a way that you are trying to keep them level until they hit the back wall and say "Come on hard 8". The other players appreciate the fact that it looks like you are trying to win money for them.
May 4th, 2010 at 9:03:23 AM
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I've been thinking more about this and I think the future in craps might look something like this. If not exactly, then some game with these features:
the below are things the casino will like, of course that's not enough!
*less employees
*a faster game
*no free odds side bets
*monitors to place bets
the below might be reasons players would like it:
*less presence of a grouchy pit boss
*chairs
*less concern over mistakes in payment
*monitors to place bets [some players]
*a faster game [some players]
*real dice [could be essential]
at least one reason I would hesitate to embrace it:
*no free odds & no way to reduce the house edge to less than 1%
[edited]
the below are things the casino will like, of course that's not enough!
*less employees
*a faster game
*no free odds side bets
*monitors to place bets
the below might be reasons players would like it:
*less presence of a grouchy pit boss
*chairs
*less concern over mistakes in payment
*monitors to place bets [some players]
*a faster game [some players]
*real dice [could be essential]
at least one reason I would hesitate to embrace it:
*no free odds & no way to reduce the house edge to less than 1%
[edited]
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
May 4th, 2010 at 10:22:09 AM
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odiousgambit -
What you're desctibing, except for the 'no free odds' part, is Rapid Craps...
What you're desctibing, except for the 'no free odds' part, is Rapid Craps...
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
May 4th, 2010 at 10:33:33 AM
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If you are nervous about walking up a table for the first time, wake up at 6 and go when there is likely to be very few people. I am sure the dealers will oblige you by providing some help at the beginning, especially after a toke.
Its how I learned the procedure part of pai gow.
Its how I learned the procedure part of pai gow.
May 4th, 2010 at 10:37:25 AM
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dont most casinos have free craps lessons at specific times? ive never actually seen one taking place but have seen signs for them.
May 4th, 2010 at 10:56:25 AM
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Change 'most' to 'some'.Quote: rudeboyoidont most casinos have free craps lessons at specific times? ive never actually seen one taking place but have seen signs for them.
This got me thinking about the class I took a few years back.
Read about it here:
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/tables/1664-free-craps-lessons-can-be-worse-than-worthless/
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
May 5th, 2010 at 8:25:10 AM
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Quote: DJTeddyBearodiousgambit -
What you're desctibing, except for the 'no free odds' part, is Rapid Craps...
well, that makes me feel stupid except after thinking about it, I kind of needed to
go through that to understand Rapid Craps. Maybe somebody else did too [g]
I wonder if this means we will see more of it? I at least would not
rule it out, and wouldnt be hating the casino necessarily for changing to it.
Especially if it meant minimum bets were low.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
May 9th, 2010 at 1:25:12 PM
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Quote: gamblerOne thing I noticed during my last trip to Las Vegas was that several casinos (Green Valley Ranch being one of them) were having one boxman watch two craps tables.
Bill Zender (casino protection expert) wrote an article on this:
http://www.lastresortconsulting.com/pages/articles/Thoughts_on_Box.html
"Mathematical expectation has nothing to do with results." (Sklansky, Theory of Poker).
