ThatDonGuy
Joined: Jun 22, 2011
• Posts: 2962
March 5th, 2017 at 8:27:14 AM permalink
Quote: Wulfgar1224

I do think I'll be able to memorize the strategy for the 4x bet before I head there in a couple of weeks. It is my understanding that is where the most critical mistakes are made.

Memorize? I actually developed a strategy card for UTH, and no dealers have minded me using it yet.

The "21 Outs" rule can be rewritten as:
If you don't pair the board with at least one of your cards, count the number of ranks, starting from ace and working down, that (a) are not on the board, (b) don't make a straight on the board, and (c) are higher than both the higher of your two cards and the lowest unpaired card on the board. (For example, if the board is A Q Q 9 7 and you have 8 3, you count K, J, 10 = 3). You fold if the number is at least the following number based on the hand on the board:
No Pair – 2
Pair – 3
Two Pair, with the fifth card higher than the low pair – 4
Two Pair, with the fifth card lower than the low pair – 5
Three Of A Kind – 4
4/Open Straight – 1 if any of the cards are paired; otherwise fold
4/Inside Straight – 2 if any of the cards are paired; 1 if there is not
4/Flush - always fold
Straight, Flush, Full House, Straight Flush – always bet
Four Of A Kind – fold if the higher of the fifth board card and your higher hole card is 7 or lower, or an 8 with four 7s or higher
In the example, there is a pair on the board (and no 4/straight), so the "fold number" is 3; the "count" is also 3, so fold.
Hunterhill
Joined: Aug 1, 2011
• Posts: 1406
March 5th, 2017 at 8:42:25 AM permalink
Quote: ThatDonGuy

Memorize? I actually developed a strategy card for UTH, and no dealers have minded me using it yet.

The "21 Outs" rule can be rewritten as:
If you don't pair the board with at least one of your cards, count the number of ranks, starting from ace and working down, that (a) are not on the board, (b) don't make a straight on the board, and (c) are higher than both the higher of your two cards and the lowest unpaired card on the board. (For example, if the board is A Q Q 9 7 and you have 8 3, you count K, J, 10 = 3). You fold if the number is at least the following number based on the hand on the board:
No Pair – 2
Pair – 3
Two Pair, with the fifth card higher than the low pair – 4
Two Pair, with the fifth card lower than the low pair – 5
Three Of A Kind – 4
4/Open Straight – 1 if any of the cards are paired; otherwise fold
4/Inside Straight – 2 if any of the cards are paired; 1 if there is not
4/Flush - always fold
Straight, Flush, Full House, Straight Flush – always bet
Four Of A Kind – fold if the higher of the fifth board card and your higher hole card is 7 or lower, or an 8 with four 7s or higher
In the example, there is a pair on the board (and no 4/straight), so the "fold number" is 3; the "count" is also 3, so fold.

Wow thats simplified? I think I'll stick to counting 21 outs,much easier in my opinion .
What we've got here is failure to communicate
odiousgambit
Joined: Nov 9, 2009
• Posts: 7294
March 5th, 2017 at 8:52:53 AM permalink
Quote: Hunterhill

Wow thats simplified? I think I'll stick to counting 21 outs,much easier in my opinion .

the Grosjean card, which I have, is not that easy to use right off the bat, either. However, like most things, actually using it helps that out. Practicing on a trainer with it in your hand is highly recommended.

Also, practicing should cut out the need to look at the card for all the other decisions except the last one.

Now if only a UTH game was close to me! grrrrrrrrrrrr
"Baccarat is a game whereby the croupier gathers in money with a flexible sculling oar, then rakes it home. If I could have borrowed his oar I would have stayed." .......... Mark Twain
Wulfgar1224
Joined: May 19, 2014
• Posts: 85
March 5th, 2017 at 11:32:37 AM permalink
Quote: ThatDonGuy

Memorize? I actually developed a strategy card for UTH, and no dealers have minded me using it yet.

The "21 Outs" rule can be rewritten as:
If you don't pair the board with at least one of your cards, count the number of ranks, starting from ace and working down, that (a) are not on the board, (b) don't make a straight on the board, and (c) are higher than both the higher of your two cards and the lowest unpaired card on the board. (For example, if the board is A Q Q 9 7 and you have 8 3, you count K, J, 10 = 3). You fold if the number is at least the following number based on the hand on the board:
No Pair – 2
Pair – 3
Two Pair, with the fifth card higher than the low pair – 4
Two Pair, with the fifth card lower than the low pair – 5
Three Of A Kind – 4
4/Open Straight – 1 if any of the cards are paired; otherwise fold
4/Inside Straight – 2 if any of the cards are paired; 1 if there is not
4/Flush - always fold
Straight, Flush, Full House, Straight Flush – always bet
Four Of A Kind – fold if the higher of the fifth board card and your higher hole card is 7 or lower, or an 8 with four 7s or higher
In the example, there is a pair on the board (and no 4/straight), so the "fold number" is 3; the "count" is also 3, so fold.

I didn't think about bringing a card with me. I will probably use a modified version that works for me. Honestly, I've been practicing this morning on the website game and it is starting to become more intuitive for me. From what I'm reading on other posts, it will be better than most of the people that step up to play the game.
odiousgambit
Joined: Nov 9, 2009
• Posts: 7294
March 5th, 2017 at 11:49:26 AM permalink
Quote: Wulfgar1224

I didn't think about bringing a card with me. I will probably use a modified version that works for me. Honestly, I've been practicing this morning on the website game and it is starting to become more intuitive for me. From what I'm reading on other posts, it will be better than most of the people that step up to play the game.

One of the things I like about the game is that you may also find your are better than some of the dealers. They do have to call their hand correctly.
"Baccarat is a game whereby the croupier gathers in money with a flexible sculling oar, then rakes it home. If I could have borrowed his oar I would have stayed." .......... Mark Twain
CharmedQuark
Joined: Apr 28, 2015
• Posts: 34
March 7th, 2017 at 10:33:00 AM permalink
Don't worry about taking time to calculate the outs. You will still be a lot faster than the player who can't decide to play A-9 with a 3X bet (they would never bet 4X) on the preflop.
beachbumbabs
Joined: May 21, 2013
• Posts: 9045
March 7th, 2017 at 2:33:21 PM permalink
Quote: CharmedQuark

Don't worry about taking time to calculate the outs. You will still be a lot faster than the player who can't decide to play A-9 with a 3X bet (they would never bet 4X) on the preflop.

Agree. Take your time, count the outs. It's your money. You'll only be slow for a little while, anyway, maybe a couple hours of play.

Start
15 outs no pair board
11 outs 1 pair
+
4 outs each rank higher than yours (that's not already on the board)

Fold over 21

90% + of the time that's all you have to count.
"If the house lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game."
Wulfgar1224
Joined: May 19, 2014
• Posts: 85
March 7th, 2017 at 6:47:24 PM permalink
I'm actually looking forward to playing this game next week in Vegas. I'll still spend most of my time betting and watching basketball and playing the tiles. But, I will sneak in a few games of Ultimate just to see how it goes. It might be a little more swingy than most games that I like to play. But, I'll let you guys know when I get back how it was.

I do have to say that I've gotten quite a bit of good advice from this thread so I'm glad that I revived it. I'm sure with all of the practice I've been getting on the website that I will do fine in terms of play. I just hope the cards co-operate with me.
charliepatrick
Joined: Jun 17, 2011
• Posts: 1316
March 8th, 2017 at 12:59:35 AM permalink
This may be a bit too complicated for a simple strategy but I created this a while ago as a crib sheet. Light blue implies suited (e.g. Raise Q6 x4 if suited).
ThatDonGuy
Joined: Jun 22, 2011
• Posts: 2962
March 8th, 2017 at 6:19:30 AM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

Agree. Take your time, count the outs. It's your money. You'll only be slow for a little while, anyway, maybe a couple hours of play.

Start
15 outs no pair board
11 outs 1 pair
+
4 outs each rank higher than yours (that's not already on the board)

Fold over 21

90% + of the time that's all you have to count.

It's "fold over 20," isn't it?

Also, if you want to expand it a little:
Add 8 if there is 4 to an open-ended straight on the board
Add 4 if there is 4 to an inside straight on the board (including AKQJ and 432A)
Add 9 if there is 4 to a flush on the board
Two Pair on the board is 7 if the fifth card is higher than the low pair, or 4 if the fifth card is lower than the low pair
(reason: with, say, 9 9 7 5 5, a 7 gives the dealer 9 9 7 7 to your 9 9 5 5, but with 9 9 7 7 5, a 5 does not improve the hand)
Three Of A Kind - 7
Straight, Flush, Full House - always bet; there will never be more than 20 outs
Four of a Kind - 0

Also, when counting "missing ranks", skip anything that makes a straight on the board, and stop when you get to either the lowest rank on the board or the higher of your two cards. If the board is A Q Q J 9 and you have 7-5, an 8 is not going to do the dealer any good, so that is only 19 outs; play the hand.