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Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
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October 8th, 2012 at 3:32:33 PM permalink
Last night, playing UTH at the Orleans with my wife (which was a miracle for her), there was a lady having problems with each hand dealt, constantly showing her hole cards with a "whad-I-do now, fellas?" Got a bit ridiculous. I know she and many others would never read or grasp a Steve How level strategy, but a Mike Shackleford type "Simplified strategy" would be good to have.
I bounced this by Charles Mousseau, and he said this a fine idea, and he's looking into it. He gave me a blurb that I wish to share, as a start on this. It is:

Pre-Flop - bet 4x if:
Any Ace or pairs of 3's +
J10/J8 suited
Q8/Q6 suited
K5/any K suited

on the flop - bet 2X:
any pair,
any draw that includes the 4th highest card not on the flop

on the River - bet 1x:
call 2nd high kicker+ if there's a pair on board,
3rd high+ if there's no pair, or
Board is a lock (top straight, full house, etc.)

that's the basics from CRM, to be refined. Perhaps we will see it on his blog.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
CRMousseau
CRMousseau
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October 8th, 2012 at 3:37:30 PM permalink
There's plenty to be added to this, but this was what I ran by someone today and it seemed to cover most of the play conditions.

There's some two pair and kicker-on-board exceptions, of course. But I think these are largely the most important, especially the preflop. It continues to blow my mind how bad people play this game.
WongBo
WongBo
Joined: Feb 3, 2012
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October 8th, 2012 at 3:45:02 PM permalink
Highest possible EV: don't play.
;)
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief. - Proverb.
Wizard
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Wizard
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October 8th, 2012 at 3:50:09 PM permalink
It is going to be difficult to beat the simplicity and power of the Grossjean strategy. That is what I personally use.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
CRMousseau
CRMousseau
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October 8th, 2012 at 4:09:26 PM permalink
Wiz,

Is that the one where you count outs on the river?

In either case, do you have any numbers for its performance? I'll be interested to compare as I develop.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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October 8th, 2012 at 5:28:43 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

It is going to be difficult to beat the simplicity and power of the Grossjean strategy. That is what I personally use.


I've ordered it.
For getting the complete newbie going, like my wife, the above "Short & Easy" blurb is helpful.
I'm sure Charles will flesh out a good and short strategy.
Also the free play site UTH online is helpful.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
teddys
teddys
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October 9th, 2012 at 6:05:41 PM permalink
Quote: CRMousseau

There's some two pair and kicker-on-board exceptions, of course. But I think these are largely the most important, especially the preflop. It continues to blow my mind how bad people play this game.

Seconded. I can count the number of people I've seen play correct strategy on one hand. Even when I played with a game inventor (not at the WoV meetup), he was still betting pretty wildly. Roger should get a bonus, stock options, and a promotion for this game. (I think he probably already has.) One thing that is disappointing is seeing the deterioration of Trips paytables. (Did see a +E.V. progressive though recently at a very unexpected place.)
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
Wulfgar1224
Wulfgar1224
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March 3rd, 2017 at 7:34:56 PM permalink
I was trying to learn this game for my upcoming trip to Vegas in March. I didn't want to start a new thread. So, I found this one and it seemed relevant so I added it here.

I'm having trouble with the Wizard's basic strategy on the small raise at the end with regard to the 21 out rule. I was hoping someone could clarify it for me. I practiced on the wizardofodds site to get a little better.

I'll give a couple of examples to illustrate things:

First hand.

My cards were 10H and 3S. I get that it is too weak to make the big raise so I checked.

The flop was 6H 7C 6C. I didn't have a hidden pair ,4 to a flush or two pair, so I checked again.

The turn and river were KH and JD. Here's how I counted the outs. 4 Aces, 3 Kings, 4 Queens, 3 Jacks, 2 6s, and 3 7s. I get 19 outs there. So, my instinct was to call that. Was that the proper thinking according to the simple strategy? I understand it is a close call and the EV on perfect strategy might say to fold. Any thoughts?

Second hand:

My cards: 9S 2S....Check

Flop: 7D 8D QC...Check

turn and river: QD 7S......here is how i calculated the outs........4 aces, 4 kings, 2queens, 4 Jacks, 4 10s, and 3 8s.....I count 21 outs there. So, according to his strategy that is a fold, correct? Maybe, I'm overthinking it. But, I would like to get the basic Wizard strategy before moving on to a more complicated one.
beachbumbabs
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beachbumbabs
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Thanks for this post from:
Wulfgar1224
March 3rd, 2017 at 10:56:41 PM permalink
Quote: Wulfgar1224

I was trying to learn this game for my upcoming trip to Vegas in March. I didn't want to start a new thread. So, I found this one and it seemed relevant so I added it here.

I'm having trouble with the Wizard's basic strategy on the small raise at the end with regard to the 21 out rule. I was hoping someone could clarify it for me. I practiced on the wizardofodds site to get a little better.

I'll give a couple of examples to illustrate things:

First hand.

My cards were 10H and 3S. I get that it is too weak to make the big raise so I checked.

The flop was 6H 7C 6C. I didn't have a hidden pair ,4 to a flush or two pair, so I checked again.

The turn and river were KH and JD. Here's how I counted the outs. 4 Aces, 3 Kings, 4 Queens, 3 Jacks, 2 6s, and 3 7s. I get 19 outs there. So, my instinct was to call that. Was that the proper thinking according to the simple strategy? I understand it is a close call and the EV on perfect strategy might say to fold. Any thoughts?

Second hand:

My cards: 9S 2S....Check

Flop: 7D 8D QC...Check

turn and river: QD 7S......here is how i calculated the outs........4 aces, 4 kings, 2queens, 4 Jacks, 4 10s, and 3 8s.....I count 21 outs there. So, according to his strategy that is a fold, correct? Maybe, I'm overthinking it. But, I would like to get the basic Wizard strategy before moving on to a more complicated one.



To my best understanding;

First hand you have correctly. Because of the pair+2 overcards, the ten can play. 11+4+4 against you.

Second hand, you undercounted by 2. Either 7 will give the dealer a FH, so 23 against you. So the 9 doesn't play.

An easy way to group count is, a no pair board Is 15 cards against you. A 1 pair board is 11. Then count overcards not on the board in batches of 4. Most boards are one or the other.

Watch out for 4 to an outside straight or flush draw. One adds 8 cards against you, the other 9. (Either may be duplicated in the count; the real number is often less). However, either of those conditions will likely invalidate a queen kicker, may even threaten a king.
"If the house lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game."
Zcore13
Zcore13
Joined: Nov 30, 2009
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March 3rd, 2017 at 11:13:58 PM permalink
Try sitting in the middle of the table and glance at hands around you. You can easily eliminate 4 possible outs at minimum.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.

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