So whats his stuff about "loose" and payout?

They seek a mix of types and payouts so as to meet trends in player's desires and to lure customers with the inevitable stories about having done well there. South Point lowered its machines payouts, but only on ten percent and didn't say anything about which ones.

One downtown casino recently lowered the house edge and identified which machines it was.

These machines were getting lots of play and were in a high traffic area,

Quote: FleaStiff

Quote: pacomartin

The $80 payout alone will return 42% of the money that comes back to you. It is the part of the design that will keep the player interested.

One might say that its the part of the design that will keep the player fooled or perhaps even "hooked".

I fully understand that the casino is there to make money and that their goal is to not only turn a profit but to maximize that profit, the problem is that just as we impose a somewhat arbitrary difference between alcohol and "pot" we also impose a difference between invitation and coercion.

If a slot machine is deceptive that is different than being merely one of a low payout rate.

A certain burden should be on the player to learn the basics but also a casino should have an obligation to disclose what the machine is designed to do.

A statement of a certain payout rate is simply insufficient information on which to base a valid decision. Payout is a term that should be defined from the perspective of a reasonable player's expectations and perceptions. Casinos know that two quarters dribbling from a machine will be put back in and are therefore not a payout, merely a delay designed to induce continued player attention. Therefore those two quarters should not be tabulated as "payout".

I'm afraid I have to disagree. I believe they should. Is the single unit win in BJ not a payout? Is the half-unit win in PWT-BJ not a payout?

Yes, these small payouts usually get fed back - but if they weren't there, you would notice your sessions being far shorter for the same amount of money. They may be not as much a prize as the machine taking less of your money, but that still counts just the same. If you want big payouts only, you can go straight betting on roulette.

Whether or not the player considers the small payout as a "win", this issue is a hot potato in the state of Ohio as they are getting ready to roll out their new casinos. The big deal is where to apply the tax rate due to the state. The casinos want to be only taxed on their net take on slots and the state wants to tax them on coin in. So, if you start with $20 in..... win, lose, win, win, lose, win, etc. and recycle that money to the tune of $100 "coin in" and eventually cash out $20, the casino says they will pay no tax...it's a net of zero in their books. The state says, "no, we're taxing the $100 that was played through". It will be interesting how this plays out.

Quote: MathExtremist

I don't know who Peter Svoboda is...

Petr Svoboda was a defensemen for a number of NHL teams, most notably the Flyers. Peter Svoboda I've never heard of.

Perhaps my ignorance will show by asking, but is "loose" really a big deal? We're talking about a few percentage points which theoretically wouldn't be met but with a remarkable number of hours played. I know in a math sense, yes it matters. But in a real world sense, don't the "loose" and the "tight" have about the same short term chance of winning? In the course of my career I was taught that the payback percentage was the return of the machine over the course of the lifetime of said machine. If that's the case, isn't griping about 5 percentage points kind of pointless as your play would be but a eye blink on the lifetime of that machine?

Edit: is it a big deal OTHER than the mental influence on gamblers.

Quote: Face

Edit: is it a big deal OTHER than the mental influence on gamblers.

I tend to think that "loose" and "tight" slot machines are virtually meaningless adjectives and are most often misdescriptions based on psychological perceptions. I would think that crossing the street to get to a "looser" machine would hardly be worth it, but this "mental influence on gamblers" is a big deal and perhaps becoming even more of a factor as casinos begin to disclose payout rates on individual slot machines in a more informative manner so as to have a competitive edge over other casinos.

The worst slot machines can still be a draw if the rooms are nice and the drinks are frequent. Its simply that one keeps hearing and seeing comments about "loose" or "tight" machines.