Deucekies
Deucekies
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September 6th, 2016 at 12:28:20 PM permalink
Here's a hypothetical:

Player A moves all in, and Player B is contemplating whether or not to call. Player C, who is not in the hand, violates the one player to a hand rule by encouraging B to make the call. Player B makes the call with only a marginal holding and eliminates Player A.

Obviously Player C would be subject to severe penalties (I personally would favor DQing). That said, that doesn't change the fact that Player A was hosed out of his tournament life when he probably wouldn't have been had Player C kept his mouth shut.

Do the rules allow for any redress for Player A? Would a reputable cardroom refund his buy-in out of their own account? Is there any way for Player A to retain his tournament life?
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland. And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with. - AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
Romes
Romes
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September 6th, 2016 at 1:43:55 PM permalink
Pending the size/stakes of the tournament... If Player B and C were found in violation of collusion then they could both be eliminated and Player A could retain his starting chip amount of the hand that drew up the violation.

Most likely here's what happens... Player A is eliminated. Player B is warned. Player C should be given penalties (possibly DQ), but regardless should get his knees broke after the tournament. Then Player C will never do that again.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
Joeshlabotnik
Joeshlabotnik
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September 6th, 2016 at 2:04:02 PM permalink
Barona casino, a few years ago, small buy-in tourney paying five places, six players left. I go all in preflop and get one caller. The flop misses me--I have AQs--but my opponent chuckles and tosses his hand. The hand doesn't hit the muck, though, and a third player, not in the hand, says "he's all in, you don't have to fold." He hastily retrieves his hand and needless to say, pairs his 7 on the river. I protest, but the floorjerk says there's nothing he can do.

1. Don't play in Indian casinos.
2: Expect "hometown rulings" wherever you go. The two other players were regulars.
3. At an absolute minimum, the player who opened his mouth should have had his balls burned off with a blowtorch.

I probably didn't lose all that much in equity, but ten years later, that incident still rankles, and I've never been back.
DrawingDead
DrawingDead
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September 6th, 2016 at 2:36:36 PM permalink
The management of the poker room was right, the two still involved in the hand were wrong, and it isn't close or ambiguous. The reason the floor said there was nothing he could do is because there was nothing he could or should do, except to retrieve the caller's hand and place it face-up upon the table, including from the muck if necessary. Heads-up against an all-in player in a tournament, he cannot fold his hand, and cannot ever be allowed to, regardless of whether he is simply innocently stupid enough to think he wants to try to do that.

The only possible staff error is that the dealer arguably should have been quicker to control the action, and immediately stopped him from trying to surrender his hand even before the other player properly spoke up. Failing that, every player in the tournament, not just in the hand or at the table, can and should be stopping you from being awarded that pot. With no further betting action possible in tournament play, the cards must be turned up and the board dealt out. Anything else amounts to chip dumping. The only player who didn't try to do the wrong thing was the one who spoke up.

A shame that the room putting on that small tournament was not equipped with a paddle or stiff leather belt to administer a couple of good hard spankings to both the players involved in the hand: the one who tried to fold and the one who thinks he was entitled to the pot.
Quote: Joeshlabotnik

Barona casino, a few years ago, small buy-in tourney paying five places, six players left. I go all in preflop and get one caller. The flop misses me--I have AQs--but my opponent chuckles and tosses his hand. The hand doesn't hit the muck, though, and a third player, not in the hand, says "he's all in, you don't have to fold." He hastily retrieves his hand and needless to say, pairs his 7 on the river. I protest, but the floorjerk says there's nothing he can do.

1. Don't play in Indian casinos.
2: Expect "hometown rulings" wherever you go. The two other players were regulars.
3. At an absolute minimum, the player who opened his mouth should have had his balls burned off with a blowtorch.

I probably didn't lose all that much in equity, but ten years later, that incident still rankles, and I've never been back.

Suck dope, watch TV, make up stuff, be somebody on the internet.
Deucekies
Deucekies
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September 6th, 2016 at 2:48:13 PM permalink
Quote: DrawingDead

The management of the poker room was right, the two still involved in the hand were wrong, and it isn't close or ambiguous. The reason the floor said there was nothing he could do is because there was nothing he could or should do, except to retrieve the caller's hand and place it face-up upon the table, including from the muck if necessary. Heads-up against an all-in player in a tournament, he cannot fold his hand, and cannot ever be allowed to, regardless of whether he is simply innocently stupid enough to think he wants to try to do that.



Correct. The first thing that went wrong there was that the dealer didn't wait for both hands to be tabled before bringing the flop.

ETA: TDA rule #15. www.pokertda.com/view-poker-tda-rules
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland. And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with. - AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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September 6th, 2016 at 2:55:34 PM permalink
Quote: Joeshlabotnik

Barona casino, a few years ago, small buy-in tourney paying five places, six players left. I go all in preflop and get one caller. The flop misses me--I have AQs--but my opponent chuckles and tosses his hand. The hand doesn't hit the muck, though, and a third player, not in the hand, says "he's all in, you don't have to fold." He hastily retrieves his hand and needless to say, pairs his 7 on the river. I protest, but the floorjerk says there's nothing he can do.

1. Don't play in Indian casinos.
2: Expect "hometown rulings" wherever you go. The two other players were regulars.
3. At an absolute minimum, the player who opened his mouth should have had his balls burned off with a blowtorch.

I probably didn't lose all that much in equity, but ten years later, that incident still rankles, and I've never been back.

Yes that would piss me off in a cash game, keep your mouth shut in situations like that. I'm not sure exactly what or how that should be handled but I have had a lot worst happen to me in LV rooms. Sometimes people just dont think, they make a mistake and say something they shouldn't, sometimes you just have to say it It is what it is. Hopefully you gave him an ear full and he won't do that agian.

"1) Don't play in Indian casinos."
That's is bad advice along with don't ever gamble online. Both oftentimes have very good value. Obviously one should use more caution.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
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September 6th, 2016 at 3:01:44 PM permalink
I've seen this happen in home poker games where a player invites his girlfriend. After he folds a hand he looks at her cards and gives her advice. I find it in terrible poker etiquette.

I don't know poker room rules well enough to say what would happen, but I hope they do not go easily on player C.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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September 6th, 2016 at 3:15:00 PM permalink
Regarding the original post by Deucekies, yeah, the two players who appear to have been colluding should be warned, and possibly penalized. But unless collusion is proven, there's not much you can do. Just as the thread title suggests, you can't unring a bell. Nor can you fix stupid.

Regarding Joeshlabotnik's issue, DrawingDead hit the nail on the head.

Also note that there is something of a movement among the Poker Tournament Director's Association members to invoke Rule One more often, to prevent players from winning on a technicality.

Quote: TDA Rule 1

1: Floor Decisions
The best interest of the game and fairness are top priorities in decision-making. Unusual circumstances occasionally dictate that decisions in the interest of fairness take priority over technical rules. Floor decisions are final.

I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Ayecarumba
Ayecarumba
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September 6th, 2016 at 7:50:30 PM permalink
Even in a cash game, ALL players have an obligation to speak up if the correct winner isn't going to get paid (e.g., the dealer misreads the board, or splits the side pot incorrectly), or if proper procedure hasn't been followed (e.g., a player hasn't had a chance to act before the guy next to him checks/bets, then the guy next to him acts...).

However, one player per hand is the rule in the casino, and should also be enforced at home if money is on the line. Advising others, especially when the adviser has knowledge of cards that others have not seen is, in a word, cheating. I see this a lot amongst older players who think they are just playing with their buddies, or want to show the player next to them their cards before they muck them, so that when their inside straight draw or small pair hits the board, they can commiserate. Fortunately, I suppose, there always seems to be a "Lawyer" at every table who complains about every jot and tittle that goes wrong.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
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