Do people have the right to ask you "How much you got back there? How much raise?"
May 17th, 2014 at 8:31:16 PM
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Are you obligated to answer such question?
I had no clue, but if I don't have to then I absolutely won't because I'm paranoid as hell to angle shooting.
Today while I was in the casino a guy at the table asked me "How much you got back there?" I didn't know if I'm obligated to answer that so I glanced at the dealer for a few secs and stared at the guy asking me questions. He then said "Was there an answer to that?" and I kept staring at him. After like 15 secs of staring at him he turned to the dealer and said "dealer can you ask that gentleman to stack his chips neatly." Dealer didn't say or do anything, I kept staring at the guy. He mumbled a few words and gave up. This whole time, I wasn't even in the hand and neither was he.
So was I right in protecting myself from angle shooting? Or is there some rule in poker that makes sure every knows how deep other people's stacks are? Did he have the right to ask? Was I obligated to answer?
Note: This has nothing to do with me being autistic. I don't act this way normally but this is poker. I'm just paranoid as hell to angle shooting.
I had no clue, but if I don't have to then I absolutely won't because I'm paranoid as hell to angle shooting.
Today while I was in the casino a guy at the table asked me "How much you got back there?" I didn't know if I'm obligated to answer that so I glanced at the dealer for a few secs and stared at the guy asking me questions. He then said "Was there an answer to that?" and I kept staring at him. After like 15 secs of staring at him he turned to the dealer and said "dealer can you ask that gentleman to stack his chips neatly." Dealer didn't say or do anything, I kept staring at the guy. He mumbled a few words and gave up. This whole time, I wasn't even in the hand and neither was he.
So was I right in protecting myself from angle shooting? Or is there some rule in poker that makes sure every knows how deep other people's stacks are? Did he have the right to ask? Was I obligated to answer?
Note: This has nothing to do with me being autistic. I don't act this way normally but this is poker. I'm just paranoid as hell to angle shooting.
May 17th, 2014 at 8:37:19 PM
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From what I know, you are under no obligation to answer.
A player can ask you or the dealer to ask you to make your high value chips visible, but that is generally as far as it can go.
I would normally give a sarcastic answer, such as "Plenty"or "more than you" when appropriate.
Part of what makes poker the game it is is being able to read stacks and pots. Which is why a dealer can spread the pot but not tell you how much is in it. Its a similar thing. The dealer can ask you to make sure your high value chips to the front which you are obligated to do by most card room rulebooks I know.
A player can ask you or the dealer to ask you to make your high value chips visible, but that is generally as far as it can go.
I would normally give a sarcastic answer, such as "Plenty"or "more than you" when appropriate.
Part of what makes poker the game it is is being able to read stacks and pots. Which is why a dealer can spread the pot but not tell you how much is in it. Its a similar thing. The dealer can ask you to make sure your high value chips to the front which you are obligated to do by most card room rulebooks I know.
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May 17th, 2014 at 8:41:14 PM
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Any thing that is said at the table must be heard by all. Any card that is seen should be seen by all.
Other than that players can lie, tell the truth or keep their mouths shut.
Non players should always keep their yaps shut.
You did right. If the dealer tells you something that is one thing. But you are not obligated to respond to another player's questions and certainly not to someone who has no money in the game at all.
It seems none of the other players with money in the game gave one whit about your style of stacking chips and if they did they should speak to the dealer, not to you.
Other than that players can lie, tell the truth or keep their mouths shut.
Non players should always keep their yaps shut.
You did right. If the dealer tells you something that is one thing. But you are not obligated to respond to another player's questions and certainly not to someone who has no money in the game at all.
It seems none of the other players with money in the game gave one whit about your style of stacking chips and if they did they should speak to the dealer, not to you.
May 17th, 2014 at 8:52:33 PM
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He is allowed to ask. You don't have to answer, but I feel like you are having poor etiquette by not answering him while also not having an reasonably organized stack. If you aren't going to answer these types of questions, then you should have your stack reasonably organized, so players can have a rough estimate. But he also is practicing poor etiquette too by asking outside of a relevant hand.
Here is a more detailed thread about this issue on 2+2 poker.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/27/brick-mortar/question-about-announcing-stack-sizes-1400732/
Here is a more detailed thread about this issue on 2+2 poker.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/27/brick-mortar/question-about-announcing-stack-sizes-1400732/
May 17th, 2014 at 9:14:16 PM
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My understanding is that your chip stack has to be neat enough that a person can look over and see how much you have.
No dirty stacks, A mixture of different colors in 1 stack.
Sometimes players inadvertently hide their chips with arms and hands. Usually if a player notices another player trying to see a stack , its correct etiquette to move your arms and hands so a player can see what you have.
You don't have to say anything, Just have your chips stacked in a way that a player can estimate what you have.
No dirty stacks, A mixture of different colors in 1 stack.
Sometimes players inadvertently hide their chips with arms and hands. Usually if a player notices another player trying to see a stack , its correct etiquette to move your arms and hands so a player can see what you have.
You don't have to say anything, Just have your chips stacked in a way that a player can estimate what you have.
Its just a forum. Nothing here to get obsessed about.
May 17th, 2014 at 9:32:01 PM
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" After like 15 secs of staring at him he turned to the dealer and said "dealer can you ask that gentleman to stack his chips neatly." Dealer didn't say or do anything. "
You were wrong and had a piss poor dealer !
You were wrong and had a piss poor dealer !
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
May 17th, 2014 at 9:32:49 PM
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deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
May 17th, 2014 at 9:37:17 PM
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But you do have to stack your chips neatly, high denominations in front.
But as Chief Shop Steward at AT&T, I would always tell people the only thing they had to sign was their pay checks. Several lost their jobs by not following that advice.
But as Chief Shop Steward at AT&T, I would always tell people the only thing they had to sign was their pay checks. Several lost their jobs by not following that advice.
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
May 17th, 2014 at 9:47:21 PM
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As has been said before, you're responsible for keeping your chip stack neat, and high denomination chips visible at all times. If your chip stack was a mess, the dealer should have ordered you to organize it upon the other player's request.
You are not required to respond to any questions from any other player. The fact that he was asking you about your chip stack while neither of you were involved in a hand is particularly suspect. I don't think he was shooting an angle if neither of you were playing at the time, but I can't imagine why he would be so curious about your stack at that exact point.
You are not required to respond to any questions from any other player. The fact that he was asking you about your chip stack while neither of you were involved in a hand is particularly suspect. I don't think he was shooting an angle if neither of you were playing at the time, but I can't imagine why he would be so curious about your stack at that exact point.
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland.
And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with.
- AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
May 18th, 2014 at 4:36:15 AM
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You never have to respond. The dealer should have to the other player that since you're not in a hand there's no requirement to restack your chips. Otherwise he should have told you to stack high chips in front, etc.
Note that the line from the song The Gambler, "You never count your money when you're sitting at the table," is the worst advice there is. You should ALWAYS know how much you and your opponent have. (The rest of the song is OK.)
Note that the line from the song The Gambler, "You never count your money when you're sitting at the table," is the worst advice there is. You should ALWAYS know how much you and your opponent have. (The rest of the song is OK.)
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
May 18th, 2014 at 5:15:44 AM
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I agree with all that has been said, but if the player has CASH behind in jurisdictions that allow it (like Nevada), I think it should be expected to provide the amount if requested. If you don't want to do so, keep your stake in chips.
May 18th, 2014 at 7:16:37 AM
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Keep your chips in stacks of 20. Keep high denomination chips in the front. Move your hands if requested.
When there are problems it is because someone isn't doing one of those three things.
When there are problems it is because someone isn't doing one of those three things.
May 18th, 2014 at 7:27:18 AM
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Is the stacks of 20 a rule in cash games? I have never see or heard it enforced if it's indeed a rule I see people who stack there chips in many different fashions.Quote: TheJacobKeep your chips in stacks of 20. Keep high denomination chips in the front. Move your hands if requested.
When there are problems it is because someone isn't doing one of those three things.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
May 18th, 2014 at 7:28:09 AM
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Quote: DeucekiesAs has been said before, you're responsible for keeping your chip stack neat, and high denomination chips visible at all times. If your chip stack was a mess, the dealer should have ordered you to organize it upon the other player's request.
You are not required to respond to any questions from any other player. The fact that he was asking you about your chip stack while neither of you were involved in a hand is particularly suspect. I don't think he was shooting an angle if neither of you were playing at the time, but I can't imagine why he would be so curious about your stack at that exact point.
For me at the poker table, I am a bit of a compulsive counter. I always know how many chips are on on the table and how much each layer has, approximately. With a messy stack both players out of the hand would be the appropriate time to converse with each other.
Agreed you are not obligated to answer any questions, but it is good etiquette to not mask your value on the table.
May 18th, 2014 at 7:40:59 AM
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The only angle I can think of is...this guy was trying to see how he reacted to questions when he had no reason not to tell the truth or fear a call. Then the guys was going to compare this reaction if they got involved in a hand. I kind of doubt anyone who was thinking like that would even be playing in that game.Quote: DeucekiesAs has been said before, you're responsible for keeping your chip stack neat, and high denomination chips visible at all times. If your chip stack was a mess, the dealer should have ordered you to organize it upon the other player's request.
You are not required to respond to any questions from any other player. The fact that he was asking you about your chip stack while neither of you were involved in a hand is particularly suspect. I don't think he was shooting an angle if neither of you were playing at the time, but I can't imagine why he would be so curious about your stack at that exact point.
Its more likely the guy was just trying to stir up shit. I have a feeling the OP is a bit of an unusual person to others. They might smell his fear, they probably feel they can rattle his cage and or bully him, this could have been just a bully test. He has already admitted, he is paranoid about people angle shooting.
Usually during the day there is always some older anal prick who is the local table captain.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
May 18th, 2014 at 9:29:45 AM
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Quote: AxelWolfIs the stacks of 20 a rule in cash games? I have never see or heard it enforced if it's indeed a rule I see people who stack there chips in many different fashions.
I always stack my chips in 16. It looks like 20 at first glance and it gives you the appearance of having more chips. Maybe an angle shoot? Not sure but I do it on purpose.
Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed.
I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW
May 18th, 2014 at 2:58:44 PM
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Regarding angle shooting. Something that sounds very similar to this is, afaik a common tell.
> If you ask "how much" and then raise you have a good hand <
nonetheless as stated I am extremely paranoid of being angle shooted.
Besides, this happened while I wasn't in a hand. What if I were in a hand? Then I have even more reason to be paranoid.
Side note: Are 1/2 NL players THAT good? I feel like solid info-gathering angle shooting is something few poker players are capable of.
> If you ask "how much" and then raise you have a good hand <
nonetheless as stated I am extremely paranoid of being angle shooted.
Besides, this happened while I wasn't in a hand. What if I were in a hand? Then I have even more reason to be paranoid.
Side note: Are 1/2 NL players THAT good? I feel like solid info-gathering angle shooting is something few poker players are capable of.
May 18th, 2014 at 3:14:32 PM
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Tell the guy, "Watchu lookin at me in the for? I ain't got no candy for you! "
I am a robot.
May 18th, 2014 at 3:16:09 PM
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You are absolutely right about that, lots of people do it. Did you pick up on that yourself ? Or was it in a book or something you read. I know there are a ton of books on tells, but I think they focus on physical tells. I would love to see something that was centered around verbal tells.Quote: Neutrino
> If you ask "how much" and then raise you have a good hand <
You can also be sure that if a guy puts a stack of chips on his $100 bill and slides it forward to the center slowly and quietly, he has a monster.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
May 18th, 2014 at 3:25:14 PM
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What I can't understand is what it has to do with him if neither of you were involved in the hand?
Tell him nothing. If he cannot guesstimate your chips then that is his problem.
When you are in a hand you also don't have to say a thing but it is expected that you will have your chips visible to all other players at all times during the hands.
To me seems like you did the right thing. Send him packing hat in hand :)
Tell him nothing. If he cannot guesstimate your chips then that is his problem.
When you are in a hand you also don't have to say a thing but it is expected that you will have your chips visible to all other players at all times during the hands.
To me seems like you did the right thing. Send him packing hat in hand :)
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
May 18th, 2014 at 6:55:02 PM
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Cash game: you're under no obligation to answer, just move your hands out of the way. Etiquette says you should stack chips neatly though, so others can tell what you've got. If neither one of you is in the hand, certainly don't answer.
Tournaments: the dealer will answer him for you by counting down your stack, I believe. Only an angle-shooter would pile his t-chips in an unrecognizable lump during a big tournament, and dealer will likely tell him to comply with stacking rules.
Tournaments: the dealer will answer him for you by counting down your stack, I believe. Only an angle-shooter would pile his t-chips in an unrecognizable lump during a big tournament, and dealer will likely tell him to comply with stacking rules.
"Poker sure is an easy game to beat if you have the roll to keep rebuying."
May 18th, 2014 at 7:25:26 PM
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Quote: GWAEI always stack my chips in 16. It looks like 20 at first glance and it gives you the appearance of having more chips. Maybe an angle shoot? Not sure but I do it on purpose.Quote: AxelWolfIs the stacks of 20 a rule in cash games? I have never see or heard it enforced if it's indeed a rule I see people who stack there chips in many different fashions.
No. Stacks of 20 is not a rule, although you may get scolded for being an angle-shooter by doing the stack of 16.
Frankly, if you have a lot of chips. stacks of 20 is standard.
Personally, unless I have more than about 80 chips, I will stack them 10 high. But at least that a somewhat standard size for short stacks.
Last year, I sat next to a guy at Wynn who has about $3,500 in red, about $200 in green, and about $2,000 in cash. He had the reds stacked in 20 chip stacks, in a mountain three levels high. The bills were in a neat stack in front, under the short stack of greens.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
May 18th, 2014 at 11:37:25 PM
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Quote: AxelWolfIs the stacks of 20 a rule in cash games? I have never see or heard it enforced if it's indeed a rule I see people who stack there chips in many different fashions.
As DJ said, definitely not a rule, but it's usually the most popular stack size since a stack of reds is $100. And chip racks themselves are also stacks of 20. I remember reading a 2+2 thread arguing if people that didn't keep chips in stacks of 20 were typically fish or not. So it could be slightly advantageous to use smaller stacks than 20, like GWAE does.
May 19th, 2014 at 12:23:41 AM
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I'm sorry guys, but poker is not a game to make friends. I would purposely confuse the f out of my opponents if the rules let me. I would not give away my stack size because game theory wise that does nothing good for me at all, if the dealer does not enforce it.
I couldn't give less crap about "etiquette", f you phil helmuth. (he's known for citing etiquette as an angle shooting technique to get other people to do stuff like show cards)
I couldn't give less crap about "etiquette", f you phil helmuth. (he's known for citing etiquette as an angle shooting technique to get other people to do stuff like show cards)
May 19th, 2014 at 1:21:46 AM
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If you don't care about etiquette, then you're posting at the wrong site. Your last post is a good example of poor etiquette, and well as at least one rule violation. Also being friendly to "fish" typically means more $$$...
Heck, fish flash me their hands all the time in low limit games when I'm not in the hand. All I do to get this treatment is to be friendly to my neighbors. I'm not intentionally asking them to show me their cards...but they willingly do it anyway. The most "successful" players generally don't do things to anger the weakest players at the table.
The fact you got that idea from Hellmuth is quite amusing though. But he's obviously wising up in his old age too.
Heck, fish flash me their hands all the time in low limit games when I'm not in the hand. All I do to get this treatment is to be friendly to my neighbors. I'm not intentionally asking them to show me their cards...but they willingly do it anyway. The most "successful" players generally don't do things to anger the weakest players at the table.
The fact you got that idea from Hellmuth is quite amusing though. But he's obviously wising up in his old age too.
May 19th, 2014 at 1:35:05 PM
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Quote: tringlomaneIf you don't care about etiquette, then you're posting at the wrong site. Your last post is a good example of poor etiquette, and well as at least one rule violation.
This seems to be a common occurrence in Neutrino's threads. He asks a question, then if he doesn't get the answer he wants, he brashly dismisses the respondents. I think the best thing would be for nobody to answer his questions anymore.
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland.
And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with.
- AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
May 19th, 2014 at 1:44:37 PM
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Quote: AxelWolfYou are absolutely right about that, lots of people do it. Did you pick up on that yourself ? Or was it in a book or something you read. I know there are a ton of books on tells, but I think they focus on physical tells. I would love to see something that was centered around verbal tells.
You can also be sure that if a guy puts a stack of chips on his $100 bill and slides it forward to the center slowly and quietly, he has a monster.
Hey, Axel, did Christmas come early this year or something? You, giving away tells? I'm awed at your generosity. :)
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
May 19th, 2014 at 1:48:26 PM
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Quote: NeutrinoI'm sorry guys, but poker is not a game to make friends. I would purposely confuse the f*** out of my opponents if the rules let me. I would not give away my stack size because game theory wise that does nothing good for me at all, if the dealer does not enforce it.
I couldn't give less crap about "etiquette", f you phil helmuth. (he's known for citing etiquette as an angle shooting technique to get other people to do stuff like show cards)
Neutrino,
Unmasked f-bombs are not tolerated here, along with other heavy swears. Please edit your post I quoted above as I have (or choose a less offensive word) and don't do it again. Thanks.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
May 19th, 2014 at 5:01:20 PM
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If you're not involved in the hand, i think you're exactly right not to say anything.
If you're heads up with him and he asks, just make sure your higher denom chips are in plain sight, and then just show him those.
If you're heads up with him and he asks, just make sure your higher denom chips are in plain sight, and then just show him those.
May 19th, 2014 at 5:30:25 PM
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At Mohegan Sun, you would have had to answer if he'd had action. (NL rule #6.) I think at some casinos you'd have had to answer even if he hadn't. In tournaments especially.
At your casino, there probably is a rule about stacking your chips neatly. I expect the only reason the dealer ignored him is because he should have waited for the hand to end.
"Poor etiquette" and "angle shooting" are synonymous. "Angle shooting" is, by definition, not technically rule-breaking; the gap between what's codified and what's expected is pretty much the definition of etiquette.
At your casino, there probably is a rule about stacking your chips neatly. I expect the only reason the dealer ignored him is because he should have waited for the hand to end.
"Poor etiquette" and "angle shooting" are synonymous. "Angle shooting" is, by definition, not technically rule-breaking; the gap between what's codified and what's expected is pretty much the definition of etiquette.
The trick to poker is learning not to beat yourself up for your mistakes too much, and certainly not too little, but just the right amount.
May 19th, 2014 at 8:58:40 PM
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I read only page 1. I might have to twist this a little to " Can I have a chip count" or "How much was that raise, I didn't see all of it".
In which case you may (varies according to Law/House) have to break-down your stacks or have the Dealer restate the raise. YOU however, don't have to SAY anything. Please correct if wrong.
***EDIT***
If you're NOT involved in the hand (folded) and the Player asking is also folded, that would gather a no-response. Repeated attempts is a sign of poor etiquette.
In which case you may (varies according to Law/House) have to break-down your stacks or have the Dealer restate the raise. YOU however, don't have to SAY anything. Please correct if wrong.
***EDIT***
If you're NOT involved in the hand (folded) and the Player asking is also folded, that would gather a no-response. Repeated attempts is a sign of poor etiquette.
Some people need to reimagine their thinking.
May 19th, 2014 at 9:23:51 PM
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Quote: AxelWolfYou are absolutely right about that, lots of people do it. Did you pick up on that yourself ? Or was it in a book or something you read. I know there are a ton of books on tells, but I think they focus on physical tells. I would love to see something that was centered around verbal tells.
You can also be sure that if a guy puts a stack of chips on his $100 bill and slides it forward to the center slowly and quietly, he has a monster.
Read it from Mike Caro.
Unfortunately he has quite an "absolute tell" attitude towards his tells. I highly doubt all his tells work 100% of the time, especially since people will fake tells.
I once saw tom dwan ask how much and raise with junk on TV. sneaky sneaky
May 19th, 2014 at 9:44:58 PM
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Etiquette is not about making friends, it's about respect for the game.Quote: NeutrinoI'm sorry guys, but poker is not a game to make friends. I would purposely confuse the f out of my opponents if the rules let me. I would not give away my stack size because game theory wise that does nothing good for me at all, if the dealer does not enforce it.
I couldn't give less crap about "etiquette", f you phil helmuth. (he's known for citing etiquette as an angle shooting technique to get other people to do stuff like show cards)
"Truth is ever to be found in the simplicity, and not in the multiplicity and confusion of things."
-- Isaac Newton
May 19th, 2014 at 10:06:31 PM
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Quote: NeutrinoAre you obligated to answer such question?
People have the right to ask you.
You have the right to say nothing at all - and make them suffer.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
May 19th, 2014 at 10:16:04 PM
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Quote: JimRockfordEtiquette is not about making friends, it's about respect for the game.
and not having etiquette is not about being mean, rude, disrespectful etc. It's about making money.
May 19th, 2014 at 10:20:13 PM
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I have usually found it's all about being an asshole.
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
May 20th, 2014 at 1:03:27 AM
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Quote: BuzzardI have usually found it's all about being an asshole.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJjPET353hk
^ regarding etiquette and profit.
Yes tony G is known as the biggest asshole in poker
