High Card Flush
Quote: WizardHigh Card Flush is a new game on trial at Harrah's Laughlin. Please have a look at my new page on High Card Flush. I welcome all corrections and comments.
You might want to point out the obvious (which I may have missed) that under the Mosseau strategy, a layer should always make the biggest call bet they can. Unless that's not true (I can't think why it wouldn't be).
As for the unknown optimal strategy's "gray area", what would the effect be of splitting the difference (edit: above or below 10-9-3, which is the middle of the 61 "gray" hands)? Is it linear between the two ends, or exponential?
Is there any bonus for five, six or seven card straight flushes?
After all, the way it is, it seems like if the 7 cards is made up of a 4 card flush plus a 3 card 9 high flush, that they would cancel each other out for a push. This is somewhat confirmed by the 2 card push. If the 7 cards is made up of a 4 or 5 card flush and a 2 card flush, well, the 2 card pushes, so the 4 or 5 card payout remains correct. Then if the 7 cards is made up of a 4 card flush and a 3 card 8 high, does it pay both? I know it doesn't but some yokel will think otherwise.
Also, the 3 card 8 high and 2 card flushes should say "push" next to, or instead of, the 0 in the pay column.
Quote: DJTeddyBearThe bonus paytable momentarily confused me. If "Event" were changed to "Best Flush" it would have made more sense.
After all, the way it is, it seems like if the 7 cards is made up of a 4 card flush plus a 3 card 9 high flush, that they would cancel each other out for a push. This is somewhat confirmed by the 2 card push. If the 7 cards is made up of a 4 or 5 card flush and a 2 card flush, well, the 2 card pushes, so the 4 or 5 card payout remains correct. Then if the 7 cards is made up of a 4 card flush and a 3 card 8 high, does it pay both? I know it doesn't but some yokel will think otherwise.
Also, the 3 card 8 high and 2 card flushes should say "push" next to, or instead of, the 0 in the pay column.
The verbiage mentions "maximum" to indicate the highest possible flush out of the player's seven cards. Note that any four card flush (even the lowly 2-3-4-5) will trump any three card flush (including Q-K-A).
7 Card Thrill
Tough market, good luck.
Multiple bet sequence might help.
Quote: AyecarumbaIf I am reading the bonus table correctly, it is unusual, in that it has the possibility of a push (8-high 3 card, or two card max flushes). You may want to point out this feature.
Pushes refer to hand copies, same hand value. Pushes would be rare, similar to a hand copy when playing three-card poker: K-7-4 versus K-7-4, etc.
Quote: AyecarumbaAs for the unknown optimal strategy's "gray area", what would the effect be of splitting the difference (edit: above or below 10-9-3, which is the middle of the 61 "gray" hands)? Is it linear between the two ends, or exponential?
The excellent Charles R. Mousseau indicates to play a three card flush of 10-8-6 and better, else fold. Like Shackleford's three card advice: play Q-6-4 or better, and run with that strategy.
Quote: AyecarumbaIs there any bonus for five, six or seven card straight flushes?
You can raise higher on a strong hand: 2x or a five-card flush, and 3x for a 6 or 7 card flush.
Side Bonus bet is flushed based.
The game might be a little frustrating without a "regular poker" bonus bet:
1. You get a four of a kind on a weak flush hand.
2. You get a full house on a hand you should fold flush-wise.
Bonus bet plays only on flush type hands.
Quote: AyecarumbaAs for the unknown optimal strategy's "gray area", what would the effect be of splitting the difference (edit: above or below 10-9-3, which is the middle of the 61 "gray" hands)?
I would split it at 10-8-6, the worst calling hand per the Mousseau strategy, instead. The reason this isn't optimal is the cards that are not in the highest flush are cards the dealer can't get, affecting the dealer's odds.
The game owner agrees that the side bet is not volatile enough, and plans to change the pay table.
Quote: PaigowdanThe game might be a little frustrating without a "regular poker" bonus bet:
1. You get a four of a kind on a weak flush hand.
2. You get a full house on a hand you should fold flush-wise.
That's what I disliked about the game at first sight. Essentially you're playing for a flush. A straight or four of a kind loses to the dealer's qualifying hand, too. I don't think I'd play it for money. I might try it out for fun, say on an online demo, but unless someone finds an AP for this, I should think I'll pass.
Usually, casinos take the position that some other casino should try it first, and so on ("the guinnea pig stalemate").
This year, there's a lot of "I'll try that new game - get me a contract and a felt!"
More on this latter....
Quote: AyecarumbaIf I am reading the bonus table correctly, it is unusual, in that it has the possibility of a push (8-high 3 card, or two card max flushes). You may want to point out this feature.
Is this game still life at Harrah's, Laughlin? What's so unusual about pushing a bonus bet? There are many side bets that have this. May not be 3 card poker, but that does not make it unusual. Check out WOO for various side bet analysis.
A bit simplistic for my tastes but that simplicity was well received by the players who liked it.
This fine little game was picked up by us at Galaxy Gaming, if you didn't know, and has gotten placed at both the M resort and casino, and at Planet Hollywood.
It's doing very well at both properties, we're proud to say, and we have fine expectations for this catchy game.
Seriously, congratulations, and Galaxy is sure to get a handsome return on your salary.
ZCore13
I think Dan was speaking as a representative of Galaxy and not any personal accomplishment !
Quote: Zcore13I'm sure Dan is doing a great job looking at all the new games, but he had nothing to do with the finding or aquisition of High Card Flush.
ZCore13
True - I hadn't. But it isn't "before my time," - as we are currently going forward with it and give it a lot of support.
And I'm proud to work on it and support it, and think a great deal about the game, - seeing it in action, and having played it, too. The designer did a fine job with a great concept, looking at it. We're designing a progressive for it, and some apps, and expect it to become pretty big.
(First off - this question relates to the example from the games official Galaxy site, where both the Flush and Straight Flush bonus bete are present.)
So I was dealt KJ8 of Hearts, as well as 4-5-6 of Spades and a wasted card. In the video, they say you hold your suited cards and fold the others. Am I forced to pick one of the 3 card flushes (take the higher flush, or the lower flush knowing that I will get odds on the straight flush) or do I have the option of holding both, making the 3 card bet, and having both bets paid on? I'm not sure I like the idea of having to fold the higher flush hand and dinging my payback on the bottom bets in order to save on a bonus bet.
For that matter - what if I am dealt 2-3-4 of Hearts and nothing else worth playing? Do I have to stay in to earn the bonus or, like the six-card-bonus in three card, can I still fold the hand but get paid on the bonus?
Any answers to these questions would be much appreciated!
Quote: ParadigmI recall when I demo'd the game at a Conference, they allowed you to play the higher flush against the dealer and still get paid on the bonus bets for the lower straight flush in your hand. Dan will confirm.
That's correct. You always want to keep the hand with the most of a suit against the dealer. But if you have a smaller straight flush and want to discard it in favor of the hand with more of a suit, you still get paid for the straight flush bonus bet.
ZCore13
Quote: ParadigmI recall when I demo'd the game at a Conference, they allowed you to play the higher flush against the dealer and still get paid on the bonus bets for the lower straight flush in your hand. Dan will confirm.
Quote: DeanandMaria..My last question is still one I would like addressed however - so when the hands are dealt, and I have nothing playable but still hold a low straight flush of say 2-3-4, do I indicate it to the dealer immediately, or when does this bet get paid by the dealer? Do I just keep the three cards and announce that I am folding all the bets except the straight flush bet?
Yes - show your short and low straight flush immediately, which is sometimes a part of a hand that you may fold, and still collect the SF bet. All bonus bet winners get paid when the best main hand is a bad hand that is to be folded. The dealer qualifies over 75% of the time, you may fold a bad hand that also has a side bet winner component, so show it, collect, and then fold. Clearly, Don't fold a four-card flush with a three-card straight flush, again, notify the dealer, you'll get paid.
Quote: UCivanWas it popular as Dan said?
There was only 1 table, Sunday afternoon, I do believe three or four people were playing it. Seemed steady, but they only had like 10 games open so that may have been a factor.
The game is easy to play and with dealing out 7 cards to everyone, players are getting a decent "time on device" experience. As always the key will be in the drop and hold numbers as compared to the other games occupying real estate on the floor.
I have to say I thought the game was decent when I played it at Ravings Conference, although I did think there was a chance that there wasn't enough of a player decision/engagement to the game. One decision to play or fold and no drawing cards, that sometimes doesn't feel like enough engagement to me......seems like this is one of the reason games like UTH are so popular....the changing dynamic of the hand as cards are revealed and decisions are made along the way.
But 3CP has had a very long run with one decision to play or fold, so what do I know?
ZCore13
Quote: Paradigm...I have to say I thought the game was decent when I played it at Ravings Conference, although I did think there was a chance that there wasn't enough of a player decision/engagement to the game. One decision to play or fold and no drawing cards, that sometimes doesn't feel like enough engagement to me......seems like this is one of the reason games like UTH are so popular....the changing dynamic of the hand as cards are revealed and decisions are made along the way.
But 3CP has had a very long run with one decision to play or fold, so what do I know?
There is bit more to it than play for fold, there is a hand examination phase, and often a "which flush to play" as a result. Not hard, but yes, there's player involvment. Some poker type games do very well being very easy and straightforward to play. There's a niche for hard-core strategy games like Ultimate Texas Hold 'em, as well as for easier games, like 3CP and High Card Flush.
Quote: Zcore13I think the one thing you're missing about this game is the "almost factor". And that little factor goes a long way.ZCore13
Agree with you on this one Z! And like PGP, you get to squeeze out your 7 cards to create more anticipation.
Not sure I can agree with Dan on the "Which Flush to play" as it is obvious that you should always play your higher flush. PGP has the "should I keep two pairs together or split them/how should I play this hand", but not sure you can make that case with HCF.
I think I may have given the impression I didn't like the game that much.....I think it has some good potential because of its simplicity and the time on device experience. As Dan said, there is a niche for simpler games and a niche for more complex ones.
I am definitely staying tuned as getting a new premium game with the potential to be a multi hundred install proposition would be a big win for Galaxy and their shareholders. I don't own stock in Galaxy............yet!
Quote: UCivanIf I have 2c,3c,4c and 7h,9h,kh,Ah, do I play 3 card straight flush or 4 card high flush? I have to discard some cards and play only one hand, right?
You would play the Ace high four card flush as your main hand against the house. BUT, you would also tuck the 3 card straight flush under the straight flush side bet to indicate you are not discarding them completely. You would then get paid on the straight flush regardless of whether you win or lose the main hand.
ZCore13
Quote: ParadigmNot sure I can agree with Dan on the "Which Flush to play" as it is obvious that you should always play your higher flush. PGP has the "should I keep two pairs together or split them/how should I play this hand", but not sure you can make that case with HCF.
Quote: UCivanIf I have 2c,3c,4c and 7h,9h,kh,Ah, do I play 3 card straight flush or 4 card high flush? I have to discard some cards and play only one hand, right?
You see? :)
To know these new casino poker games intimately, - you really need to have a lot of Carnival knowledge.
Quote: PaigowdanYou see? :)
To know these new casino poker games intimately, - you really need to have a lot of Carnival knowledge.
Speaking of that knowledge...is there an online demo of the game?
Dan, I was helping you to interpret the comments.Quote: PaigowdanYou see? :)
The point I was making was that there is enough player review and involvement in HCF game play to be a fine game. Three Card Poker is a good comparison, and it has way more in terms of player participation than Baccarat or Roulette without being a hard poker "type" of game. Again, there is a market for these types of games, and HCF is a finely done game.
Sorry guys, when a decision is obvious, I don't consider it a decision. Every 4 card flush beats every 3 card flush, so the "big" decision UC refers to here is to "tuck your 3 card SF cards" to make sure you get paid on the bonus?Quote: UCivanIf I have 2c,3c,4c and 7h,9h,kh,Ah, do I play 3 card straight flush or 4 card high flush? I have to discard some cards and play only one hand, right?
The only real decision in the game is what is your minimum flush to not fold. That type of decision has served 3CP for a long time. With 7 cards to squeeze and examine, that may be enough to give this game momentum. That is the big question and the players will answer it. Dan is right, it is a "fine game" that will fit into the simple table game niche and I think there is a lot of room in that niche.
Quote: ParadigmSorry guys, when a decision is obvious, I don't consider it a decision. Every 4 card flush beats every 3 card flush, so the "big" decision UC refers to here is to "tuck your 3 card SF cards" to make sure you get paid on the bonus?
In that regard, yes, sure, it is obvious, but no harm in that. A player has to take a game action and call, even if it's not math homework.
Quote: ParadigmThe only real decision in the game is what is your minimum flush to not fold. That type of decision has served 3CP for a long time. With 7 cards to squeeze and examine, that may be enough to give this game momentum. That is the big question and the players will answer it. Dan is right, it is a "fine game" that will fit into the simple table game niche and I think there is a lot of room in that niche.
Very true. The whole point here is to not count poker outs, probabilities, advanced strategy, - and to avoid the whole "big beefy poker game production" when you want to just play, socialize, and "have a glass of wine and relax at a game" type of thing. And a game for this need and niche still has to be spot-on, very fine, to succeed.
But the main thing here that is new and novel is the ability to have a "battle of the Flushes" - where every hand can be considered to have a flush of some sort, instead of "4 or less=NO flush at all" and "5 or more only=Just a flush" that probably won't face-off to another flush.
This game mechanism vision was actually very insightful - and it plays very well.
Quote: UCivanI heard 3CP's patent will soon expire (3 years or less). So what's next for 3CP? We will see DEQ-3CP and / or GG-3CP?
It may be sooner than that, if not already, and held by trademarks.
What we might see is "MGM poker" or "Tri-card" poker directly installed by casino operators, just like no-license fee Roulette.
First off, the learning curve was higher for me than I expected. There's just a lot of stuff going on - 4 betting spots, 2 bonus paytables (Flush and Straight Flush), dealer qualifier rules, how much to raise, etc....I eventually got it, and kinda figured out about when you should fold. I was just doing horribly at first, couldn't buy a 4-card flush to save my life, but then I hit a few here and there. I was playing $3 on the flush, $3 on the Ante, and $1 on the Straight Flush. I hit a few here and there but was down to my last few white chips, when lo and behold I hit a 6 carder! I was pretty amazed, I actually had to buy in again just to cover my $9 raise.
Anyway, I got $300 for the Flush bet and came out ahead about $245 on the session. Obviously at that point I ran for the exit, assuming that the game had a pretty heavy edge and I didn't know the correct basic strategy.
One thing to note - the Wizard's page is outdated - the paytable shown on Galaxy's website is the one I played, which paid 100-1 for a 6 card flush on the "Flush" side bet. I'm not sure what the other payouts are, but they're most likely different. Also there is the additional "Straight Flush" side bet.
One thing I didn't realize is that you could get paid for a straight flush that you didn't want to keep in your hand (due to a higher flush in the other cards). I don't think this actually bit me, but I definitely wouldn't have even thought about trying to do that.
Decent carnival game...one negative that struck me was all the amazing hands that don't pay you $h!t, like 3 of a kind of a full house. I guess if you're feeling those coming down on you, head to the Pai Gow Poker table.
Until yesterday (and I just posted this on M Resorts Facebook page). After about an hour of treading water, I was dealt this by Marilou in Seat #1.
It was unbelievable. Oddly enough, Planet Hollywood did not generate a W2G for their winner, but M Resort stated that since this was both a 300:1 win and over $600, it met the requirement and they shut the table down until the paperwork was completed.
I'm far from a stat-man or math dude, but I can tell you that seeing one card shouldn't really make a lick of difference, as the suit matters so much more than the value in this game. I would think the only advantage you could gain if you saw two suited or unsuited cards.Quote: AcesAndEightsbut one card out of 7 is pretty weak information and would probably not move the edge much, if at all. Seeing a bunch of player cards may actually help, as there are so many cards going around that it's common to see another player's hand. Of course Eliot did some ad-hoc analysis here and also concluded that sharing information would be the only serious risk, and he doesn't think the edge gained would be that great. I would like to see more detailed analysis of this, but of course the serious APs have already done their own analysis, and they won't be sharing it :).
With that said - I did notice something over the long haul - hands with many players playing four or five card hands led more often to a dealer having a stronger hand as well. I think this would be increased if info could be acquired as to players sharing the same suit in larger hands, thereby perhaps leaving a higher percentage of one suit remaining. The opposite also seems to apply - many folds at the table often led to a dealer without even a 3 card flush to play, as obviously cards were more evenly spread among hands. I don't know if I gained anything or not, but I did pay attention to other hands and acted as late as possible in some rare cases.
Sounds like everyone won in this game. May be it is beatable??? I am going to try it. I wonder what the house edge is.Quote: deanandmariaSo . . . played this twice over the weekend a couple of hours at Planet Hollywood, and a hour at M Resort. The Planet Hollywood session was positive for both myself and my wife, as we both his a four card straight flush and left up a couple of hundred a piece. Did see an amazing 7-card diamond flush for $1500, and thought I would never see it again.
Until yesterday (and I just posted this on M Resorts Facebook page). After about an hour of treading water, I was dealt this by Marilou in Seat #1.
It was unbelievable. Oddly enough, Planet Hollywood did not generate a W2G for their winner, but M Resort stated that since this was both a 300:1 win and over $600, it met the requirement and they shut the table down until the paperwork was completed.
The Wall Street Journal
.19 was about as low as it would get over the last few months. Then recently .24 has been the low. You could make money buying at the low and selling a few days later. We'll see if .30 is the new low now or if it drops back down to upper .20's.
ZCore13
