lilredrooster
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June 27th, 2017 at 1:47:12 PM permalink
First, I'm not trying to make money off of this. I'm just throwing it out there for fun.

The game is Chess. No, I'm not claiming to have invented Chess.

I'm aware that some casinos in the past have offered Chess tournaments. This would be different than that.

This would be chess played in a manner similar to how it's played and gambled on in many cities.

There would be Chess tables on the floor marked for example as being $25 minimum to $500 maximum.

There would be a casino employee or dealer at each table. The casino would make money by paying the winner back slightly less than even money.

A challenger sits down at a Chess table and puts his money down indicating how much he is willing to bet against any opponent.

An opponent within the casino sees the bet out there and sits down meaning he accepts the bet and matches it.

The Dealer flips a coin to see who gets White and moves first. Either player can call the flip.

There is a 5 second time clock at each table that is counted down to 0 aurally.

The Dealer will make sure each opponent has placed his chess piece down within the 5 seconds or they forfeit their turn.

The house will take a very small % of the bet if there is a stalemate for example 1%.

The winner will win the amount bet less the house take; for example 2%.

An obvious criticism is that expert chess players would be able to clean up. True, but so what? The same is true of poker players. A great many chess players consider themselves to be experts. I don't see this as a problem.

I see this as being potentially pretty popular.

As far as I know something similar to this has never been done in a casino. I could be wrong. I only am aware of chess tournaments in casinos.

What do you think?
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Ayecarumba
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June 27th, 2017 at 1:51:16 PM permalink
Even at 5 seconds per move, it will take too much time, and not make enough to even pay for the "dealer/judge" who has to be there all the time.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
lilredrooster
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June 27th, 2017 at 1:55:11 PM permalink
Quote: Ayecarumba

Even at 5 seconds per move, it will take too much time, and not make enough to even pay for the "dealer/judge" who has to be there all the time.


maybe the casino could allow other players to bet on or against the players playing as long as there is somebody to match their bet.
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Ayecarumba
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June 27th, 2017 at 1:59:03 PM permalink
What if the action was against a computer? The higher the stakes, the more advanced the computer opponent? Or players could select various levels of starting board positions with built in handicaps, so that if they win or tie, they might collect more or less depending on their starting handicap? It could also be set up like a video slot with random combinations of starting positions, pieces missing, or opponent rankings.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
lilredrooster
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June 27th, 2017 at 2:04:22 PM permalink
Quote: Ayecarumba

What if the action was against a computer? The higher the stakes, the more advanced the computer opponent? Or players could select various levels of starting board positions with built in handicaps, so that if they win or tie, they might collect more or less depending on their starting handicap? It could also be set up like a video slot with random combinations of starting positions, pieces missing, or opponent rankings.




yes, that is a good point. my idea was to set it up to involve more human interaction. many people, including myself, prefer human interaction. obviously, blackjack, craps. roulette, etc. could all be slot style games and many have been turned into that but they've managed to survive as table games. to me, it would be more appealing this way. of course, there are a great many others who find computer games or slots appealing.
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billryan
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June 27th, 2017 at 2:04:42 PM permalink
You wouldn't need a judge at every table as every move would be recorded and played back in the event of a dispute. Problem is trying to level off the playing field. I walk into a casino and want to play someone for $25 a game, how do I know they are not a Grand Master.
In poker, you have a few rounds to determine if you are the sucker, here you put your money up front against an unknown entity.
I could see it having a small niche. Better for a card room than a casino, though.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
lilredrooster
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June 27th, 2017 at 2:08:20 PM permalink
Quote: billryan

how do I know they are not a Grand Master.
In poker, you have a few rounds to determine if you are the sucker, here you put your money up front against an unknown entity.


there aren't that many Grand Masters. And the greatest would probably be recognized by other chess players. there are plenty of suckers staying at poker tables even after it's become pretty obvious that they're not competitive.
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DRich
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Ayecarumba
June 27th, 2017 at 2:39:27 PM permalink
Just not enough money could be generated to justify the costs. In poker the casino takes a cut every hand and they still aren't very profitable. Backgammon has been a huge game for gamblers for many years but it is also to slow for the casinos to make any money. The average slot machine makes over $200 a day at most casinos and they require very little in the way of employee costs.
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Deucekies
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June 27th, 2017 at 2:51:14 PM permalink
As mentioned by many game creators here before, the secret to a successful casino game is simplicity. A game that can be explained in ten seconds or less, and players know what they're doing within a couple hands. Chess is possibly one of the most involved games there is.

There's a reason nobody's patented Ultimate Bridge yet.
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AxelWolf
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June 27th, 2017 at 2:54:48 PM permalink
In poker there is a big element of luck on each hand, 7-2 can beat AA (the worst hand/player can beat the best hand/player over and over due to luck) In chess that won't happen, the better player will win way too often.

I have no doubt some people would try just for fun, but it wouldn't be enough to add it to the casinos.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
TigerWu
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June 27th, 2017 at 3:38:39 PM permalink
I think it would work better as a computerized game played against the computer. You sit at a terminal and put, say, $100 in. If you lose a piece, you lose a certain amount of money, like $5. If you capture a piece, you win $5. If you lose the game, you lose all your money. If you win the game, you win a certain amount back. Or it could also be timed, like every five minutes you lose $5, to keep the game moving. I don't know, I'm not a math or chess guy, but I can imagine all kinds of different monetization schemes.
lilredrooster
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June 27th, 2017 at 4:18:57 PM permalink
another possibility is that the casino could book a game against a chess master. the link is FIDE's ranking of the top chess players in the world. Ranked no. 70 is Samuel Shankland from the U.S. he could play against as many as 20 players with a 10 second clock. only Shankland has to make his move within 10 seconds. his opponents just have to make their move before he comes around to them again. because there are so many players he's playing against and because he is on the clock he might be vulnerable. he is not one of the very greatest chess players in the world. the casino could accept $100 bets and offer to pay 3/1 if a player beats him and 1/2 if the player stalemates him. Shankland would of course get a % of the casino winnings and both he and the casino would expect him to beat the great majority of players.

https://ratings.fide.com/top.phtml?list=men
Last edited by: lilredrooster on Jun 27, 2017
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Paradigm
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June 27th, 2017 at 7:17:52 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

....In chess that won't happen, the better player will win way too often.


Check that Axel...the better chess player will win 99% of the time. You may back that down to 90% of the time in backgammon as the dice offer at least a chance of getting lucky in backgammon.

This is the beauty of poker vs. other skill games. If someone can come up with a skill game that has as much luck component as poker does, they will have a "gold mine".
AxelWolf
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June 27th, 2017 at 8:45:34 PM permalink
Quote: Paradigm

Check that Axel...the better chess player will win 99% of the time. You may back that down to 90% of the time in backgammon as the dice offer at least a chance of getting lucky in backgammon.

This is the beauty of poker vs. other skill games. If someone can come up with a skill game that has as much luck component as poker does, they will have a "gold mine".

I didn't put 99% of the time because it would depend on how much better that person was. I'm better than most people I personally know and have played with, but I can't imagine I would win 99% of the time. People also make blunders.

I do like the idea I just dont think it would work on a big scale. I do think a few casinos could make it work.

I just think the sharks will be haning out waiting for some a fish to sit down.

If chess could work why not pool, ping-pong and other games?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
tringlomane
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June 27th, 2017 at 11:11:13 PM permalink
Quote: lilredrooster

another possibility is that the casino could book a game against a chess master. the link is FIDE's ranking of the top chess players in the world. Ranked no. 70 is Samuel Shankland from the U.S. he could play against as many as 20 players with a 10 second clock. only Shankland has to make his move within 10 seconds. his opponents just have to make their move before he comes around to them again. because there are so many players he's playing against and because he is on the clock he might be vulnerable. he is not one of the very greatest chess players in the world. the casino could accept $100 bets and offer to pay 3/1 if a player beats him and 1/2 if the player stalemates him. Shankland would of course get a % of the casino winnings and both he and the casino would expect him to beat the great majority of players.

https://ratings.fide.com/top.phtml?list=men



That is a hell of a lot of effort for a casino to go through. Plus the house edge would be variable...the casino surely wouldn't want this.
lilredrooster
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June 28th, 2017 at 2:24:42 AM permalink
Quote: Paradigm

Check that Axel...the better chess player will win 99% of the time.



only if there is a large difference in the skill of the players not if there is a small difference. human beings have enormous egos. most of these players won't know each other. they don't have official rankings. many players would step up to the table believing they are great chess players when they are not. i used to play regularly with against a friend and we were about equal and we pretty much split. just because a player gets beat does not mean he will not play again thinking he will win this time. also, the player will be wise if he is beat as to how badly he was beaten. was he beaten easily or was it a long game and difficult for his opponent to beat him. if it was difficult for his opponent to beat him he is going to believe he will win next time. your 99% figure only works is there is a large difference between the skill of the various players, not a small one. also, a player who is very strong without a clock might not be so strong with a clock.
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odiousgambit
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June 28th, 2017 at 3:32:37 AM permalink
I like the Star Trek idea where the chess pieces are human [or alien?] and when a capture is made the person is killed!!

In fairness I barely remember the episode, and somehow somebody/something steps in to prevent Kirk [?] from getting it.
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rxwine
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June 28th, 2017 at 5:06:29 AM permalink
Introduce an element of chance into chess. Literally, Chance cards like in monopoly. "Any chosen Pawn has immunity one turn"
"Any chosen Bishop may move like Knight one turn" "King orders drink from cocktail waitress, sacrifice Pawn"

And so forth.

They could come up randomly with some method.
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Paradigm
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June 28th, 2017 at 6:51:57 AM permalink
Quote: lilredrooster

only if there is a large difference in the skill of the players not if there is a small difference. human beings have enormous egos. most of these players won't know each other. they don't have official rankings. many players would step up to the table believing they are great chess players when they are not. i used to play regularly with against a friend and we were about equal and we pretty much split. just because a player gets beat does not mean he will not play again thinking he will win this time. also, the player will be wise if he is beat as to how badly he was beaten. was he beaten easily or was it a long game and difficult for his opponent to beat him. if it was difficult for his opponent to beat him he is going to believe he will win next time. your 99% figure only works is there is a large difference between the skill of the various players, not a small one. also, a player who is very strong without a clock might not be so strong with a clock.


99% of the time on a given floor in a given US casino, there is a large difference in the chess skill set of any two players...not a small one. Time to move on to the next idea.
Romes
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June 28th, 2017 at 7:39:30 AM permalink
The idea is skilled gaming... I like that because I've always excelled in skilled events. However, the idea is flawed. What would happen is you'd have all the best chess players in the world sitting at every table and the regular people who just want to give it a shot will all lose then never play the game again. Not only that, chess doesn't reach a broad enough market. You need a fun "game" that appeals to older and younger generations. In the end ANY skilled gaming (while I like it) is doomed due to the fact that the sharks will fleece the fish and then the fish will stop playing.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
AxelWolf
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June 28th, 2017 at 8:55:37 AM permalink
Quote: rxwine

Introduce an element of chance into chess. Literally, Chance cards like in monopoly. "Any chosen Pawn has immunity one turn"
"Any chosen Bishop may move like Knight one turn" "King orders drink from cocktail waitress, sacrifice Pawn"

And so forth.

They could come up randomly with some method.

Good players will still dominate the average chess player even with a disadvantage. Now what happens when the good player gets the advantage?

I'm sure someone can come up with something to even up the odds, but then it's not really chess anymore, it's just a game using a chess concept. If that will work they can just apply that to many different games like checkers. This might all work as a novilty concept but I can't imagine it being much more than that.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
RS
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June 28th, 2017 at 9:04:12 AM permalink
I think it'd work better if it was set up like the gamblit poker machines, with multiple games on it. This way it's all done on a computer, you don't need to hire/train/pay a dealer/judge. Don't need to worry about a timer because machine will do it, or however you want it setup. Any game they can get approved from the manufacturer would work....monopoly, connect 4, life, sorry, scrabble, etc. as well as home card games like go fish, gin rummy, BS, etc. Might even be able to add regular games and let one player act as the dealer and everyone else as a player, so they can play blackjack/craps/PGP/baccarat/etc. against each other.

Throw a few machines like that in O'sheas, or wherever those darn beer pong rooms are, somewhere like TopGolf, etc. That way it's more of a thing where people can challenge each other when they're in a party-like environment.
AxelWolf
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June 28th, 2017 at 9:28:27 AM permalink
No need for any machines at all. Just charging stations with the game adveriments and seating.

Enter casino download the app on your phone or tablet. Head to any kiosk where your device can sync up somehow, insert money and it automatically adds the credits to your account. If you don't have a device you can get one from the casino or find a stationary one in the casino.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Romes
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June 28th, 2017 at 10:00:24 AM permalink
The moment that happens you'll have people spoofing in from all over the world so it looks like their phone is in Vegas, when they're actually not. The nightmare of regulation and control this would take isn't worth the hassle/cost, which is why I doubt we'll see anything like this anytime soon.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
gamerfreak
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June 28th, 2017 at 12:02:56 PM permalink
Quote: Romes

The moment that happens you'll have people spoofing in from all over the world so it looks like their phone is in Vegas, when they're actually not. The nightmare of regulation and control this would take isn't worth the hassle/cost, which is why I doubt we'll see anything like this anytime soon.


NJ actually has an interesting barrier to spoofing.

I may be getting a detail or two wrong, but each device connecting to the online casino is required to have wifi. It checks other access points in the area to see if they are also in NJ.

You and I both know that pretty much nothing is impossible to spoof, they just made it significaantly more difficult.
rxwine
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June 28th, 2017 at 12:09:26 PM permalink
Quote: Romes

The idea is skilled gaming... I like that because I've always excelled in skilled events.



To sum it up, the challenge is to engage skilled players but still provide opportunity for the novice.

Simple as that!

Or not simple. It's an interesting thought process to try to figure out the most fantastic combo ever though.
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rxwine
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June 28th, 2017 at 12:24:39 PM permalink
The many ways to fashion a game for money is only limited by imagination. (even though the casino has other ideas)

Here's another idea for chess.

Bank of 8 machines.
Each player pays a certain amount of money to make a move.
They are each playing against a machine. The machine is highly rated. Higher than the best masters
There's a growing progressive jackpot overhead.
The goal of the game is to get 3 of your pieces on certain squares. All the moves are possible positions. They are picked at random every time the machine resets and shown on a board above..

First person who does it wins the progressive. You can still be stopped and start from scratch if your King is checkmated. Otherwise game plays like chess.

The machine doesn't do anything but play the best chess against you, meanwhile you're trying to get certain pieces to certain squares before it takes you out.
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Romes
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June 28th, 2017 at 12:30:55 PM permalink
If you make the AI too good, everyone will just lose and/or you'll only get professionals AP'ing the progressive.

If you make the AI not good enough, everyone will win, leading to a failed game and/or smaller progressives and less attention.

The problem with Skilled Gaming is there is no way to "force" the skill gap to be a certain distance so it's fun but fair. The whole point of bringing skill in to it is that it SHOULDN'T be fair. Someone should be better and they should win. The fish won't take kindly to it so they won't play when they realize they're not good enough.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
rxwine
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June 28th, 2017 at 12:41:56 PM permalink
Quote: Romes

If you make the AI too good, everyone will just lose and/or you'll only get professionals AP'ing the progressive.



I actually think my scenario would favor plenty of lesser challengers since the position is random and you don't need to beat the machine to win. Some pro players would play too fast against other pro player and reset their starting position. You have to balance many factors.
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Romes
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June 28th, 2017 at 12:44:27 PM permalink
But in the end if it comes down to RNG, then it's not skill and you'll lose a bunch of players that don't want to all put $10 in a pot and coin flip for who gets it.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
rxwine
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June 28th, 2017 at 12:50:33 PM permalink
Quote: Romes

But in the end if it comes down to RNG, then it's not skill and you'll lose a bunch of players that don't want to all put $10 in a pot and coin flip for who gets it.



Maybe I'm not explaining it well.

I think it's skill with a particular complexity that can't be factored.
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lilredrooster
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June 28th, 2017 at 1:55:48 PM permalink
Quote: Romes

The idea is skilled gaming...What would happen is you'd have all the best chess players in the world sitting at every table and the regular people who just want to give it a shot will all lose then never play the game again. In the end ANY skilled gaming (while I like it) is doomed due to the fact that the sharks will fleece the fish and then the fish will stop playing.



Just one last thing and then I'll bow out of this thread. Granted that the weak players would be sacrificial lambs. But you guys are not realizing that the strong players would want to play against each other. These are guys who spent a good part of their lives playing and studying this game. They don't have a lot of opportunity to make money from their skill. These guys have big egos. They will want to SHOW that they are the best or among the best at chess. They would be willing to risk money to prove it. You guys are thinking as if these guys are APs who are hunting for an advantage, somebody that they can beat easily and make money off of. That's not what chess players are. They want to SHOW they are the best. They would not just be looking for weak players to beat. I know you guys who play poker are almost always at a table that has a majority of strong players. You want to beat not just the weak players but the strong players too. Chess players are even more so out to prove they are the best or among the best.
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TomG
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June 28th, 2017 at 1:57:35 PM permalink
I like the idea. One possibility: playing against a computer, but the machine will generate a random starting position. Not Chess960, more like the puzzles I used to do in the newspaper. Sometimes it will be an obvious mate in one for the player, other times will require a lot more work. Anyone can just get the strongest chess engine imaginable on their phone. But the longer you take for your moves the lower the payout. Set it up so that the best grandmasters can get 104% back, while the rest of us are stuck around 80%. Probably not much of a money maker, but if it's the only one around, I can see it bringing people through the door just to check it out. The CES crowd might like it. Could also make it so that customers can play against customers with a random starting position.
DRich
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June 28th, 2017 at 3:43:51 PM permalink
Quote: lilredrooster

But you guys are not realizing that the strong players would want to play against each other. These are guys who spent a good part of their lives playing and studying this game. They don't have a lot of opportunity to make money from their skill. These guys have big egos. They will want to SHOW that they are the best or among the best at chess.



When it comes to money I think you are so wrong on this point. Everybody will choose the easiest money when available. They can prove themselves in chess tournaments.
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Ayecarumba
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June 28th, 2017 at 4:00:48 PM permalink
Playing speed chess for cash in the park has been around for a long time. I think there is a small market proven there, but certainly not enough to make it worth the floor space in a casino. Something with broader appeal is required.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
FTB
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February 1st, 2019 at 10:42:34 PM permalink
I have never seen nor heard of casinos offering chess tournaments and I've been visiting casinos since my early teens (parents used to bring me there).

Regarding the many concepts and variations mentioned: I am intrigued.

If slots still exist (not much brain power needed there), why couldn't a game like chess be monetized somehow into the grand scheme of things at and for casinos?
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tringlomane
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February 1st, 2019 at 11:46:02 PM permalink
Quote: FTB

I have never seen nor heard of casinos offering chess tournaments and I've been visiting casinos since my early teens (parents used to bring me there).

Regarding the many concepts and variations mentioned: I am intrigued.

If slots still exist (not much brain power needed there), why couldn't a game like chess be monetized somehow into the grand scheme of things at and for casinos?



It could be, but i think the market would be poor for it. Most people at the casino don't want to think TOO hard.

I liked this game concept based on checkers, but it didn't last long in most places. Rampart has the only unit left as far as I know as of May 2018.

http://www.ledgaming.com/game/cash_king_checkers/
Wizard
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February 2nd, 2019 at 6:26:48 AM permalink
I think this has been said many times, but this simply wouldn't make enough money for the casino per square foot. Too slow. There would also likely be arguments unless the game were electronic, which is not as fun. Major cities back east often of a park somewhere where people gather to play chess. I played at DuPont circle in DC lots of times. I think this idea would work better as just a chess club, with an entrance fee, and turn a blind eye to the gambling.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Gialmere
Gialmere
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beachbumbabs
February 2nd, 2019 at 9:45:53 AM permalink
An interesting old thread. The only thing I can think of is a video poker type machine that spits out "white mates in x" problems and gives you 20-30 seconds to solve them. If you do, you then randomly select a prize (like picking one square on a blank chessboard and seeing what payoff is revealed). Even then, it would probably work best as a bonus round for a chess themed slot.
Have you tried 22 tonight? I said 22.
FTB
FTB
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February 5th, 2019 at 5:15:24 AM permalink
Quote: Gialmere

An interesting old thread. The only thing I can think of is a video poker type machine that spits out "white mates in x" problems and gives you 20-30 seconds to solve them. If you do, you then randomly select a prize (like picking one square on a blank chessboard and seeing what payoff is revealed). Even then, it would probably work best as a bonus round for a chess themed slot.



I like this idea. Surprised it hasn't been done already.
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DogHand
DogHand
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February 5th, 2019 at 7:51:21 AM permalink
Quote: FTB

I have never seen nor heard of casinos offering chess tournaments and I've been visiting casinos since my early teens (parents used to bring me there).<snip>



FTB,

How about the 2019 National Open at Westgate Las Vegas Resort & Casino this June? For more information, visit:

https://www.vegaschessfestival.com

I know of at least one long-time poster on another BJ site who is an internationally-known player who regularly plays at the National Open.

Dog Hand
beachbumbabs
beachbumbabs
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February 5th, 2019 at 11:52:14 AM permalink
EdCollins has talked about LV chess tournaments on here several times over the years. He's attended.at least a few. I think the Riviera used to host some hogh-profile ones.

Maybe Ed could discuss that some.

Also I think.Gialmere has a good seed of an idea there. It could be in.rotation with those other skill-based games, like the Boggle one and some.others being marketed.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
JoeTheDragon
JoeTheDragon
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February 26th, 2019 at 9:17:21 PM permalink
Boggle ?

will the gameing board have to have an official word list like in scrabble?
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