beachbumbabs
Administrator
Joined: May 21, 2013
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December 25th, 2016 at 4:15:58 AM permalink
To me it looks more like collusion with the pit. From above, the bets would look the same size; both red-topped, 2 chips. Green under the ante, red under 3rd and 4th st, green again under the reds to make 90. 6 chips to triple up, whether 30 or 90.

In MS, they typically stack all the chips by demon when the player wins, and size them with like chips while paying. If it's a losing hand, they stack and put them on the tray. Pushes, the player would just pull back his chips. So security would have to be watching very closely from above to realize the scam, know the bet structure as designed, know the payouts, to realize something was wrong.

And they may not be doing it every hand. You might have just happened along for a hand or two where they felt safe placing the advantage bet, and been Schooled enough in the game to recognize the cheating at a glance, looking at it from the side.

I would guess the advantage approached 20%, maybe more. The hit rate is not that great on that game.
"If the house lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game."
AxelWolf
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
• Threads: 113
• Posts: 11835
December 25th, 2016 at 7:00:12 AM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

I'm wondering why most gamblers don't have a problem sitting there and getting overpaid in a situation like this, but then they'll go shopping and correct the grocery store clerk who undercharged them for bananas. Morally, what's the difference between a casino dealer and a grocery clerk?

Each transaction in a casino has a cost associated with it. Normally it's a percentage point or two above the fair value of the wager. In this Mississippi Stud case, based on the flawed dealer behavior, the price was wrong, it was far too low. How is that any different than the built-in profit a grocery store expects to charge on their goods? If bananas cost 99c/lb, the store maybe bought them for 89c/lb and expects to make 10c/lb. That's the way retail works. But if the clerk only charges you 19c/lb, obviously you're getting a great deal but, just as obviously, the store is losing money due to the employee error. But most people will say "no, that price is wrong" in the grocery scenario but not in the gambling scenario. Why?

I would quickly point out the bandannas hoping they would miss the fact that they undercharged me for my big screen TV. I might even bring a cute little puppy in to distract the cashier (-;

But seriously, I wouldn't point out a undercharge at Walmart(Walmart is a evil empire too, but that's a different topic), unless I suspected the cashier was going to get in trouble. I would give the cashier back an over-payment.
Grocery Stores Overcharging Across the Country - ABC News.
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/grocery-stores-overcharging-country/story?id=32025735
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
chrisjs87
Joined: Mar 24, 2011
• Threads: 9
• Posts: 32
December 25th, 2016 at 11:24:30 AM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

To me it looks more like collusion with the pit. From above, the bets would look the same size; both red-topped, 2 chips. Green under the ante, red under 3rd and 4th st, green again under the reds to make 90. 6 chips to triple up, whether 30 or 90.

In MS, they typically stack all the chips by demon when the player wins, and size them with like chips while paying. If it's a losing hand, they stack and put them on the tray. Pushes, the player would just pull back his chips. So security would have to be watching very closely from above to realize the scam, know the bet structure as designed, know the payouts, to realize something was wrong.

And they may not be doing it every hand. You might have just happened along for a hand or two where they felt safe placing the advantage bet, and been Schooled enough in the game to recognize the cheating at a glance, looking at it from the side.

I would guess the advantage approached 20%, maybe more. The hit rate is not that great on that game.

My thoughts exactly. In retrospect I really wish I would have stuck around a little longer to observe.
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
• Threads: 114
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December 25th, 2016 at 12:45:08 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

To me it looks more like collusion with the pit...

Very astute; I would say probably so.

With a weak floorman and a hard-to-discern payment to the player, this can be done, and it happens.
Thieves often work as teams. I'm certain the dealer knew the game he dealt and its payouts like the back of his hand.

I knew a very successful businessman who told me he funded his business, years ago, by "working" the BJ table he dealt at an AC casino when AC was booming; took about \$80K additional off the place over months from his dealing job, totally got away with it, started a business that made him a millionaire.

A few years later he came back with a check for \$80 Grand for the table games manager, and told his story; the manager said, "I'm not going to go through a whole rigmarole over this now, it's a can of worms from the past, - just leave and get on with your life. Goodbye." He offered to make good because he became rich in legitimate business.

I'm amazed by the maneuvers people pull and often get away with, all totally rationalized. If you do something, if you decide to take some action, it is always 100% justified and righteous in the eyes of the doer, and is not seen any other - which is why it is done and why it is rationalized.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Hunterhill
Joined: Aug 1, 2011
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• Posts: 1300
December 25th, 2016 at 3:12:55 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Very astute; I would say probably so.

. I'm certain the dealer knew the game he dealt and its payouts like the back of his hand.

I have to disagree with that,I have played with so many dealers who did not know the game.
I played Mississippi stud, with a dealer who if you folded did not take your ante, 3 card poker where you didn't have to make the play bet to still be in the hand.,
Blackjack where if you surrendered you got your entire bet given vack to you.Those are just a few examples out of many.
People are always quick to think it's collusion,but many times it's just incompetence.
What we've got here is failure to communicate
MathExtremist
Joined: Aug 31, 2010
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• Posts: 6526
December 25th, 2016 at 3:18:13 PM permalink
Quote: Hunterhill

I have to disagree with that,I have played with so many dealers who did not know the game.
I played Mississippi stud, with a dealer who if you folded did not take your ante, 3 card poker where you didn't have to make the play bet to still be in the hand.,
Blackjack where if you surrendered you got your entire bet given vack to you.Those are just a few examples out of many.
People are always quick to think it's collusion,but many times it's just incompetence.

Could be, but BBB is right that the bet sizes are clearly tailored to avoid surveillance noticing anything. It's easier to exploit incompetence if you hide that incompetence from as many people as possible. With different bet sizes, there's a much greater chance that surveillance catches it, calls down to the pit, and puts an end to the misdealing.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
• Threads: 114
• Posts: 5648
December 25th, 2016 at 3:20:10 PM permalink
Quote: Hunterhill

I have to disagree with that,I have played with so many dealers who did not know the game.
I played Mississippi stud, with a dealer who if you folded did not take your ante, 3 card poker where you didn't have to make the play bet to still be in the hand.,
Blackjack where if you surrendered you got your entire bet given vack to you.Those are just a few examples out of many.
People are always quick to think it's collusion,but many times it's just incompetence.

Maybe so, very possible, too, but for that to go on (either way, theft or incompetence) - then the floor and surveillance are also incompetent - so, still sad to hear. And a bit scary, too.

They're either crooks, or just very incompetent.

And there is no other scenario.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Wizardofnothing
Joined: Jul 3, 2015
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December 25th, 2016 at 4:22:26 PM permalink
Did I miss something? Was this Scarlett pearl?
NOW HIRING!!!! REQUEST INFO VIA PM
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
• Threads: 114
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December 25th, 2016 at 4:43:57 PM permalink
Quote: Wizardofnothing

Did I miss something? Was this Scarlett pearl?

The mention of the casino would produce some phone calls....maybe some "get into the office NOW" kind of things....
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Ibeatyouraces
Joined: Jan 12, 2010
• Threads: 58
• Posts: 9869
December 25th, 2016 at 5:09:22 PM permalink
Quote: chrisjs87

So I was passing by a Mississippi Stud table the other day and was blown away by what I saw. Player seated at third base, sitting in front of thousands of dollars in black and purple, is betting the following: An ante bet of \$30, followed by a 3rd street bet of \$10, followed by a 4th street bet of \$10, and finally, he makes his hand on 5th street and proceeds to bet \$90. I sat there and watched him repeat this simple process for about 20 minutes to make sure I wasn't imagining it, or if it was some kind of fluke, but sure enough, this is how the game was being dealt to this guy.

I'm not in interested in plays that could be construed as outright cheating, but that "dark" side of me really wanted to walk up behind this guy and whisper "give me a stack of those purple right now, or it's game-fucking-over."

Instead I just laughed and walked away.

1st, you should've jumped into the game.

2nd, you should've NEVER mentioned this situation here!!

3rd, a lot of speculation going on in this thread.

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