JoelDeze
JoelDeze
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July 18th, 2016 at 1:16:34 PM permalink
This topic is to determine if there really is an advantage for a specific dice setting in terms of avoiding the 7 altogether. It is not meant to determine if there are advantages for specific number rolls.

There is some small aspect of dice control though but not much. As this is an "axis test" I'm assuming that you are at least attempting to throw the dice on axis. I don't really care if you are trying to be perfect but this much needs to be done. Also, the base requirement is that you need to have at least one die (left or right) remain on axis. While this can be a little difficult it is not impossible. It doesn't matter if you perfect the left die, the right die, or that you are alternating each one. You just need one die to remain on axis. Since many people seem to think they are controlled shooters, this shouldn't be all that difficult.

All of the tables take into account the following:

Dice Set contains top 2 numbers (left die and right die) and the 2 numbers facing you (left die and right die). So 33-62 means top numbers are 3s and numbers facing you are 6 (left die) and 2 (right die).

AL = Axis Left
AR = Axis Right

Axis assumes when you throw the dice and they land, if the number facing up was 3, if you were to turn the dice vertically in a wheel pattern it would show the corresponding numbers in that column. (eg. if you start with 33-62, the axis left column contains 3,6,4,1 so if the dice landed on 1 and you turned the dice like a vertical wheel, it should read 1,3,6,4. It would always contain the same number set in order). If you had perfect axis control you would never leave the AL and AR columns. Your numbers would always show up here.

CC1L = Counter Clockwise 1 die face (from axis) for the left die.
CC1R = Counter Clockwise 1 die face (from axis) for the right die.
CC2L = Counter Clockwise 2 die faces (from axis) for the left die.
CC2R = Counter Clockwise 2 die faces (from axis) for the right die.
CC3L = Counter Clockwise 3 die faces (from axis) for the left die.
CC3R = Counter Clockwise 3 die faces (from axis) for the right die.

Table Summary information is below each table.

(33-62) Dice Setting

Dice SetALARCC1LCC1RCC2LCC2RCC3LCC3RTotals
33-6233333333
62211556
44444444
15566221
7-Combos144224421
1343,4
2343,4
3616,1
4434,3
5161,6
6343,4
7434,3
8343,4
9616,1
10434,3
11161,6
12343,4
13252,5
14434,3
15525,2
16343,4
17434,3
18343,4
19252,5
20434,3
21525,2
# Comb.128
1,62
6,12
2,52
5,22
3,47
4,36
16.41%


Summary for the 33-62 dice set:

There is a 16.41% chance to hit the 7 using this setting. This seems to correlate well with mathematical averages. The 3,4 and 4,3 are heavy favorites to show up in this set. This is also a very popular set that a lot of people like to use.



(66-22) Dice Setting

Dice SetALARCC1LCC1RCC2LCC2RCC3LCC3RTotals
66-2266666666
22335544
11111111
55442233
422442220
616,1
252,5
161,6
525,2
616,1
161,6
616,1
252,5
161,6
525,2
616,1
161,6
616,1
161,6
616,1
252,5
161,6
525,2
616,1
161,6
# Comb.128
1,67
6,17
2,53
5,23
3,40
4,30
15.63%


Summary for the 66-22 dice set:

There is a 15.63% chance to hit the 7 using this setting. This seems to correlate well with mathematical averages. The 1,6 and 6,1 are heavy favorites to show up in this set. The 3,4 and 4,3 should "never" show up using this. I actually favored this setting a lot and can confirm that the 4,3 or 3,4 never come up for me when I 7-out. I almost always get a 6-1 or 1-6 and rarely the 5-2 or 2-5. If anyone wants to test the accuracy of this setting, it is one of the best ones to use because the 4-3 or 3-4 should not come up if you are attempting this setting and trying to roll somewhat on axis.




(31-23) Dice Setting

Dice SetALARCC1LCC1RCC2LCC2RCC3LCC3RTotals
31-2331313131
23125465
46464646
54652312
7-Combos242224218
1343,4
2434,3
3252,5
4525,2
5343,4
6434,3
7252,5
8525,2
9161,6
10343,4
11434,3
12616,1
13343,4
14434,3
15161,6
16343,4
17616,1
18434,3
# Comb.128
1,62
6,12
2,52
5,22
3,45
4,35
14.06%


Summary for the 31-23 dice set:

There is a 14.06% chance to hit the 7 using this setting. I'm calling this the Jorge set because my buddy Jorge was using this his "first time" rolling and he had two long rolls. I was trying to figure out why this dice setting was special and you can see that the 7-out percentage is fairly low. I saw him hit many 4s and many 10s. And, after looking through this set I can see why. Even if he's off on axis by a little or a lot, the 4s and 10s come up quite often. 3,4 and 4,3 are the heavy 7 patterns in this set.




(64-56) Dice Setting

Dice SetALARCC1LCC1RCC2LCC2RCC3LCC3RTotals
64-5664646464
56452132
13131313
21325645
242224218
616,1
161,6
525,2
252,5
616,1
161,6
525,2
252,5
434,3
616,1
343,4
161,6
616,1
161,6
434,3
616,1
343,4
161,6
# Comb.128
1,65
6,15
2,52
5,22
3,42
4,32
14.06%


Summary for the 64-56 dice set:

There is a 14.06% chance to hit the 7 using this setting. This is one of my new favorite test sets and I'm going to be using it to test with over the next couple of weeks. To expand on the number advantages (even though I said I wouldn't go into detail), here is the listing:

NumberRolled?Pct
253.91%
353.91%
4129.38%
51310.16%
6129.38%
71814.06%
8107.81%
91511.72%
10118.59%
1164.69%
1253.91%


This would give you a good advantage on the 9, 5, 4, 6, and 10. The 7 and 11 would have a solid advantage on the come out roll. So, you shouldn't have to change dice settings at all.


SUMMARY:

This doesn't cover nearly enough of the dice sets out there. But, food for fodder.
“It’s a dog eat dog world out there and I’m wearing milkbone underwear .” – Norm Peterson
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
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July 18th, 2016 at 1:52:41 PM permalink
Trying to follow your method, there seems to be an error?

For the left die in the 33-62 chart, the possibilities are to stay 3,6,4,1 with various permutations... but for CC1L, the possibilities are shown to be 3,2,4,5. That is either wrong or I don't get it.

The 33-62 is the 'flying V' btw, which I believe is supposed to come up with as few 7s as possible, if the dice would stay on axis.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
DeMango
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July 18th, 2016 at 5:00:01 PM permalink
If you are random and if you are 44.44% on axis, you are saying that sevens are less for certain sets?
When a rock is thrown into a pack of dogs, the one that yells the loudest is the one who got hit.
JoelDeze
JoelDeze
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July 19th, 2016 at 3:21:05 AM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

Trying to follow your method, there seems to be an error?

For the left die in the 33-62 chart, the possibilities are to stay 3,6,4,1 with various permutations... but for CC1L, the possibilities are shown to be 3,2,4,5. That is either wrong or I don't get it.

The 33-62 is the 'flying V' btw, which I believe is supposed to come up with as few 7s as possible, if the dice would stay on axis.



It's correct.

First, if you look just below the two AR columns on that dice set, it shows there is only 1 chance of hitting a 7 if you stay on axis. Where it says 7-combos.

CC1L refers to the left die.

Put the die on the table and twist it counter clockwise by one face. Now it shows 3,2,4,5.

CC = counter clockwise.
1 = 1 face or one twist or one turn
L = Left Die

If it says CC2R that means put the right die down on the table and twist it counter clockwise 2 times.

While that set, and yes I know what it's called (just easier using numbers to relate all sets) is great at reducing 7s when on axis, I'm showing that if you are off axis you have a greater chance to hit 7s.

I tested two sets last night. When anyone was throwing the V I played the DPL and won and when I got the dice I did the 64-56 set. I rolled 3 sets using it and hit 2 numbers, 3 numbers, and 3 numbers. All of my 7-outs were 6-1 or 1-6 which correlated to the chart. I wish I had more time last night but I'm going to continue testing next week.
“It’s a dog eat dog world out there and I’m wearing milkbone underwear .” – Norm Peterson
JoelDeze
JoelDeze
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July 19th, 2016 at 3:23:28 AM permalink
Quote: DeMango

If you are random and if you are 44.44% on axis, you are saying that sevens are less for certain sets?



Yes, that is absolutely correct.
“It’s a dog eat dog world out there and I’m wearing milkbone underwear .” – Norm Peterson
odiousgambit
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July 19th, 2016 at 3:45:35 AM permalink
Quote: JoelDeze

I'm showing that if you are off axis you have a greater chance to hit 7s.



OK

I'll give you credit for analyzing off-axis rolls, who else is doing that?

As for me, I think my head would explode.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
JoelDeze
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July 19th, 2016 at 6:54:04 AM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

OK

I'll give you credit for analyzing off-axis rolls, who else is doing that?

As for me, I think my head would explode.



I believe there may be a lot of advantage play scenarios involved here. For instance, if someone were to hop the 7s, if you know a dice set doesn't include the 4-3 you don't have to hop all three 7s. If you know that there are 18 combination 7s in play and 10 of them are 6-1 or 1-6, you could even choose to hop just one 7 (the 6-1). Depending on the way you wager you would return 3:1 within the first 5 rolls or 2:1 by the end of the 10th roll. The total risk would be $15 to win $30. Now hedge the $15 on the highest probability return number in that dice set. Play even money on the Pass and DPL simultaneously so you can roll.

I don't usually play DPL but it's a little interesting looking at the game in a slightly different way. Many more tests to come.
“It’s a dog eat dog world out there and I’m wearing milkbone underwear .” – Norm Peterson
dicesitter
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July 19th, 2016 at 7:25:12 AM permalink
joel


you said

"This topic is to determine if there really is an advantage for a specific dice setting in terms of avoiding the 7 altogether. It is not meant to determine if there are advantages for specific number rolls.

There is some small aspect of dice control though but not much. As this is an "axis test" I'm assuming that you are at least attempting to throw the dice on axis. I don't really care if you are trying to be perfect but this much needs to be done. Also, the base requirement is that you need to have at least one die (left or right) remain on axis. While this can be a little difficult it is not impossible. It doesn't matter if you perfect the left die, the right die, or that you are alternating each one. You just need one die to remain on axis. Since many people seem to think they are controlled shooters, this shouldn't be all that difficult."


I don't understand this....... we all know your dice don't stay on axis during the shot...... period..... this is a fact, just as sure as the world is not flat.
If the dice do not stay on axis (ever) then it is just as silly to say well if we can just keep one die on axis and one off......

Now GTC guys are into that, if we can keep one die on axis and one off we cant make a seven.....100% true, except what they are talking about
has nothing to do with staying on axis.

If you take a pair of dice and place them in front of you 5/3/5/3 hardway set and unfold the tossing plain. you have 5,3,2,4 on each.
with the 1/6 in the axel. some suggest when ever a die finishes with a 5,3,2,4 up that dice stayed on axis...... pure hogwash.

The only thing that is true in this is that certain sets if thrown by a person with some experience can produce a different
set of outcomes than other sets, a certain percentage of time. Those outcomes vary from day to day and table to
table.. the idea of dice control, constant advantage and stay on axis .... you may as well believe in the tooth fairy.

dicesetter
JoelDeze
JoelDeze
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July 19th, 2016 at 7:40:47 AM permalink
Quote: dicesitter



The only thing that is true in this is that certain sets if thrown by a person with some experience can produce a different
set of outcomes than other sets, a certain percentage of time. Those outcomes vary from day to day and table to
table.. the idea of dice control, constant advantage and stay on axis .... you may as well believe in the tooth fairy.

dicesetter



First of all, I don't believe that anyone can throw the dice and stay on axis even 50% of the time. I'm a right handed thrower. The right die tends to stay on axis for me 50% of the time. The left die tends to move off axis 90% of the time. So, why is this information valuable to me?

If I'm using a specific dice set and I see that my rolls are trending to (CC2L, AR) I can reduce the overall chart probability for that dice set to a couple of columns. I can note whether there are more 7s for me rolling this specific set and I can also see what numbers have the highest probability to come up.

You think I believe people can stay on axis. I believe people don't stay on axis. I want to know how off-axis rolling affects a specific dice setting. The information is right in front of you. If you don't understand it I can't help you.
“It’s a dog eat dog world out there and I’m wearing milkbone underwear .” – Norm Peterson
dicesitter
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July 19th, 2016 at 9:06:56 AM permalink
JOEL


My point is simple..... dice (never ) stay on axis during the entire shot....

Now that is entirely different than saying a shot finishes on the same axis it started
on..... these are two different ideas.

All I am saying is your statement that the dice stay on axis even 50% of the time
is 100% false..... there are hundreds of hours of slow motion video showing that.

If you are going to go into this work you are doing, I think it is great.... but please
define what you mean by staying on axis. An on axis finish is not the same as
staying on axis....


Dicesetter
JoelDeze
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July 19th, 2016 at 10:09:35 AM permalink
Quote: dicesitter

JOEL


My point is simple..... dice (never ) stay on axis during the entire shot....

Now that is entirely different than saying a shot finishes on the same axis it started
on..... these are two different ideas.

All I am saying is your statement that the dice stay on axis even 50% of the time
is 100% false..... there are hundreds of hours of slow motion video showing that.

If you are going to go into this work you are doing, I think it is great.... but please
define what you mean by staying on axis. An on axis finish is not the same as
staying on axis....


Dicesetter



Okay, I see the point you are making now. I'm talking about a revolving vertical axis. Stick a needle through the center of the dice and rotate it vertically.
“It’s a dog eat dog world out there and I’m wearing milkbone underwear .” – Norm Peterson
dicesitter
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July 19th, 2016 at 11:41:11 AM permalink
Joel



OK I tried


dicesetter
DeMango
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July 19th, 2016 at 4:30:16 PM permalink
You cannot be both random and have less 7's per 36 rolls than 6. If you have better than 44.4% on axis RESULTS, you have influenced dice and they are not random.
When a rock is thrown into a pack of dogs, the one that yells the loudest is the one who got hit.
MathExtremist
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July 19th, 2016 at 5:42:18 PM permalink
Quote: DeMango

You cannot be both random and have less 7's per 36 rolls than 6. If you have better than 44.4% on axis RESULTS, you have influenced dice and they are not random.

That's true if you can expect better than 44.44% on-axis results, but it takes a lot of throws to establish that causality via sampling. E.g., if you throw the dice 100 times, you'll either be higher or lower than 44.44% purely due to luck. On the other hand, if you have better than 0% on-axis throws, where the dice actually remain on-axis from the time they leave your hand until they come to rest, then you are definitely influencing the dice and your edge can be calculated based on how the dice behave.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
dicesitter
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July 20th, 2016 at 6:09:06 AM permalink
math


"you have better than 0% on-axis throws, where the dice actually remain on-axis from the time they leave your hand until they come to rest, then you are definitely influencing the dice and your edge can be calculated based on how the dice behave."

That is correct.

But the real problem is many people look at the wrong things when judging
whether a person has any affect on the shot. That is silly on its face, every shooter
has an affect, the only question is, does "a" particular shooter affect the dice enough
to alter the outcome as compared to others.

dicesetter
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