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Home » Forums » Gambling » Craps » Gambler accused of dice sliding at Wynn Las Vegas - Sued for return of $700,000
Gambler accused of dice sliding at Wynn Las Vegas - Sued for return of $700,000
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| January 29th, 2012 at 1:20:39 PM permalink | |
| Doc Member since: Feb 27, 2010 Threads: 20 Posts: 2771 | Well, as one of the "others", I could probably be convinced that card counters were cheaters if it were demonstrated that counting violated the law or that the casino had published and made available to all of the players a specific set of rules that prohibit card counting in their casino (including a clear definition of what they mean by card counting.) If it eventually turns out to be just (published) house rules violation and not a law violation, I would still prefer a term other than "cheater", to distinguish counters from criminals. It appears, though, that all we are going to hear is that counting violates "house rules" and that players are supposed to know exactly what those rules are, even if the casino is not willing to tell us openly exactly what they are. |
| January 29th, 2012 at 1:50:14 PM permalink | |
| Paigowdan Member since: Apr 28, 2010 Threads: 54 Posts: 2097 |
What people need to be convinced of is that there are NO "good guys" and NO "bad guys" based on "just" capping bets, or "just" card counting, or "just" taking chips from the rack, or "just" this thing or "just" that thing. It's breaking the rules to take from the till for personal gain, and get heat for exactly that reason. 1. people who come to play at a casino may win or lose. Has nothing to do with the dealer's feelings, he doesn't particularly care who wins or loses. It's the casino's money versus the player's money. 2. Dealer pays out based on the results of the cards or dice, win or lose. So now the casino actually doesn't care either - since the math of the house edge is established. Some win, slightly more lose, and the house edge is the difference, where it covers the light bills, salaries, decorations and expenses. The House edge is a constant from the casino's POV - like a movie ticket fee, a Buffet entrance fee, a subway or bus fare. It is the cost of doing business to operate the premises in the first place...it is the till. 3. The good guys and the bads guys are broken out as follows: - those who pay their fare, and - those who don't pay their fare, breach the rules, for personal gain at someone else's expense. It really doesn't matter who messes with the house edge income (fee) system: - a dealer who steals chips from the rack, seeking personal gain. - a hole-carder, seeking personal gain. - a floorman who steals chips, seeking personal gain. - a card counter, seeking personal gain. - a "count-room" employee who steals cash from the drop boxes, seeking personal gain. - a player who caps or pinches bets, seeking personal gain. - an executive who pads his expense account, seeking personal gain. - a player marking cards, seeking personal gain. - a cage worker stealing cash,seeking personal gain. - a player inserting gaffed dice onto a crap game, seeking personal gain. - a dealer who steals from the communual tip boxes, seeking personal gain. etc. These are all the bad guys: breaking the ground rules of play (at whatever game or task they are supposed to abide by) - for personal gain. They are all the losers, the "bad guys" - as they are ALL taking from the till for personal gain at someone else's expense against the fair play ground rules - and they all get justified heat for that exactly reason - get it? Gambling doesn't build character, it reveals..no character. But a lot of characters. |
| January 29th, 2012 at 2:11:52 PM permalink | |
| P90 Member since: Jan 8, 2011 Threads: 7 Posts: 1113 |
Which means that you, Dan, are a cheater when you use your custom improved Pai Gow Poker strategy, reducing that constant compared to the house way that the casino expects its customers to play, at best. You aren't sneaking in through the fire exit, but you are using your dad's Senior Citizen Card to get in for a discount price. - And you, who only pays part of his fare. |
| January 29th, 2012 at 2:23:56 PM permalink | |
| EvenBob Member since: Jul 18, 2010 Threads: 231 Posts: 6361 |
You have to seperate those that actually cheat, from those that are taking advantage of a flawed game. Everything you listed is against the law, except hole carding and counting. One casino owner to another: "It would be so much easier if we could just hit them over the head, steal their money, and throw their bodies in the creek." Al Swearengen, Deadwood |
| January 29th, 2012 at 2:28:33 PM permalink | |
| Doc Member since: Feb 27, 2010 Threads: 20 Posts: 2771 |
Dan, eight of your eleven examples are clearly criminal acts. The padded expense account is also probably a criminal act, depending upon agreements and expectations between the executive and the company. The remaining two items are hole carding and card counting. I am not certain, but I think that hole carding is not considered a criminal offense provided the player is just making use of information made available through dealer errors (which should be dealt with through training.) As for the final item, I am confident that card counting is not a criminal offense. I have tried in my posts to make two things clear: (1) I am not and have never been a card counter, and (2) I find it quite offensive that anyone would repeatedly group non-criminals with criminals (as you have in your list) in what appears to be an deliberate attempt to libel and malign the non-criminals by association. We get it that you don't like card counters; that does not make them either criminals or cheaters. See above for what it would take to convince me that they are cheaters. (Edit: Slow typing. EvenBob made most of my point in fewer words.) |
| January 29th, 2012 at 4:24:11 PM permalink | |
| SOOPOO Member since: Aug 8, 2010 Threads: 49 Posts: 1304 | OK boys- If I repeatedly said that those who overeat at buffets are cheaters, because the restaurant expects to make money on every customer, that the overeater at a buffet is not paying his fair share, and blah blah blah-- I'd be the restaurant version of Dan. Dan would say that the restaurant figures out their 'house advantage' is dependent on everyone not eating so much. And all restaurants will close.. blah blah blah... There is one and ONLY one person here who avers that counting cards is cheating... one lonely voice... one clearly misguided voice... One most frequently posting voice... There are so many ways for a casino to prevent effective counting.... the CSM's... 6:5... limited penetration... POSTED RULES limiting bet spreads..., and yes, the 'back off'..... To summarize Dan is wrong when he calls counters cheaters Dan is right when he says that casinos don't like counters and will try to prevent them from being successful Dan is wrong when he calls counters cheaters Dan is wrong when he calls counters cheaters etc... Since I may have missed a post here and there, is there any other forum member who agrees that card counting is cheating? I have to tell you, I would consider it quite an insult for another person to call me a cheater because I altered my bet at a blackjack table, due to seeing certain cards dealt the previous hand. |
| January 29th, 2012 at 4:43:07 PM permalink | |
| EvenBob Member since: Jul 18, 2010 Threads: 231 Posts: 6361 |
I understand Dan's viewpoint, I just don't agree with it. Some women think if their husband even looks at another man, its cheating. Casinos consider anybody playing BJ at more than the idiot level to be cheating. Its an hysterical reaction (excessive emotion, such as fear or panic), just like the woman reacting to her husband. Counters aren't cheats, they're advanced players. But casinos tend to get emotional where money is concerned, so they brand counters as cheats because it makes them feel good to do so. It justifies the drastic steps they take to defeat them. One casino owner to another: "It would be so much easier if we could just hit them over the head, steal their money, and throw their bodies in the creek." Al Swearengen, Deadwood |
| January 29th, 2012 at 4:48:47 PM permalink | |
| Ibeatyouraces Member since: Jan 12, 2010 Threads: 17 Posts: 888 | I guess Dan would say that the Wiz and the pit boss at the Avi are cheaters too. "Shut up Meg."
Peter Griffin, Family Guy |
| January 29th, 2012 at 5:12:22 PM permalink | |
| EvenBob Member since: Jul 18, 2010 Threads: 231 Posts: 6361 | Here's what the former leader of the MIT BJ team said a few years ago. "Over the years, the average yearly income of a blackjack player from our group has been $25,000. Granted, it’s part time work, but it’s not that profitable really. There have got to be a hundred other things casinos spend more money on. Measured from a cost/benefit standpoint, their countermeasures are ridiculous. They probably spend 10 times as much money to stop us compared to what they’d ever lose." Exactly. Its hysterical paranoia on the casinos part. They want and think they deserve every dime that walks thru their doors and will do anything to get it. One casino owner to another: "It would be so much easier if we could just hit them over the head, steal their money, and throw their bodies in the creek." Al Swearengen, Deadwood |
| January 29th, 2012 at 5:15:46 PM permalink | |
| MarieBicurie Member since: Sep 17, 2010 Threads: 4 Posts: 123 |
My wife never says anything when I look at other men. She even let's me hang out with my guy friends unsupervised. |
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