Gambler accused of dice sliding at Wynn Las Vegas - Sued for return of $700,000

Quote: Paigowdan

If a player does something to reduce or eliminate it that is openly against the house rules (hole carding, card counting, pinching and capping bets), is cheating of some sort

Dan, its not cheating if you have a poorly designed
game, which BJ obviously is. If any schmuck can
beat a game just by watching and remembering
the cards, then the game shouldn't be offered in
the first place. The casino has to either fix the game
so its unbeatable, or stop crying like a new born
baby every time somebody beats it. You're like the
dumb kid down the street who says 'bet you can't
throw a rock and hit me' and every time somebody
hits him, he calls them a cheater. He's offering a
flawed game, just like the casino is.

FWIW, Greektown casino does not, nor has it ever had FPDW. The best they have had or do have is NSUDW, 9/6 JOB, some with super times pay option, and 9/6 JOB progressives.

Quote: EvenBob

Dan, its not cheating if you have a poorly designed
game, which BJ obviously is.

It's handled very poorly in many jurisdictions, no doubt in my mind.

Quote: EvenBob

If any schmuck can
beat a game just by watching and remembering
the cards, then the game shouldn't be offered in
the first place. The casino has to either fix the game
so its unbeatable, or stop crying like a new born
baby every time somebody beats it. You're like the
dumb kid down the street who says 'bet you can't
throw a rock and hit me' and every time somebody
hits him, he calls them a cheater. He's offering a
flawed game, just like the casino is.

1.No, a few - enough - smucks can beat the game without counter measures. Casinos don't cry if someone beats it, the change the rules, the view the rule-breakers as cheaters as the new rules are globally known, and watch the card counters cry and steam about the rule changes.
2. such a kid should be held down by the other kids and hit with rocks until he gives up that silly game, which is what the casinos are counters are giving each other via BJ. It's the new ground rules are: no counting - get caught counting and get backed off.

Quote: Paigowdan

No, a few - enough - smucks can beat the game without counter measures..

Far more than a few, Dan. Two AC casinos, Resorts and Boardwalk,
offered a special deal to BJ counters in 1979. No backing off,
no banning. The place was jammed with AP's, they cost
the casinos a ton of money. The grand experiment lasted 2 weeks,
they called it off or go broke.

The point is, if you have no counter measures, AP's would
put any casino out of business in record time. Every schmuck
WOULD be counting and there would be legions of them. BJ
is a very beatable game, and you offer it. And cry when its
beaten. Who's the the bad guy in reality, Dan. You can't offer
a flawed game and then blame those who take advantage of it.

Quote: EvenBob

Far more than a few, Dan. Two AC casinos, Resorts and Boardwalk,
offered a special deal to BJ counters in 1979. No backing off,
no banning. The place was jammed with AP's, they cost
the casinos a ton of money. The grand experiment lasted 2 weeks,
they called it off or go broke.

The point is, if you have no counter measures, AP's would
put any casino out of business in record time. Every schmuck
WOULD be counting and there would be legions of them. BJ
is a very beatable game, and you offer it. And cry when its
beaten. Who's the the bad guy in reality, Dan. You can't offer
a flawed game and then blame those who take advantage of it.

This says it all, proves it all - and Thank you Bob!: - offer freely countable Blackjack and watch your table games pit get punished for it and the casino manager fired for it.
As for the bad guy? He's the casino manager who offered countable blackjack and got his ass beaten badly. A schmuck. This guy cried when he was beaten because he was beaten out of a manager's job for incompetence.
A better guy is the casino manager who puts in a lot of BJ counter measures, including back offs, 86-ing, and the like, so that he can keep Blackjack in the casino.
The best guy? Offer Blackjack with counter measures that keep APs from ever bothering your casino: shallow penetration, CSMs, 2-thru-6 Blackjack, bet ranges of $5-$25, $25-$100, $100-$300, and $300-$1,000. But have DOA, DAS, H17, split including aces 4x.

Quote: Paigowdan

[If you modify the risk of loss from the ground rules mathematics, you are cheating.]
The house edge of a certain percentage is a valid requirement by the house for it to remain in business.

Quote: Paigowdan

Both fortune Pai Gow and EZ pai Gow were tested by mathematician 'x', and optimal play could not beat the house commission (fortune), or the queen-qualifer mechanism (EZ Pai Gow) - no matter what perfect strategy was used.

Of course you can't eliminate the house edge in these games, the commission is no joke.
But you can reduce it from the certain percentage that the house expects. And you do reduce it with your strategy.

So it's not quite like sneaking into a movie theater through a fire exit then. It's more like using your dad's Senior Citizen Card to get the ticket for 3/4 the price. Bad, bad boy.

Quote: Paigowdan

Yes, and players complain, and re-shuffling costs money by kill hands per hour, etc.

Players don't complain when they get used to it.
Yes, reshuffling does cost money by reducing the number of hands per hour. So? It fixes the game, making it effectively undefeatable by counters.

Of course you want it both ways, get maximum hands per hour, AND get no losses from successful counters. That's an understandable desire. In Nevada - but not in New Jersey and not almost anywhere outside US - casinos have the privilege of being able to back off and ban players at will, and so are able to realize that desire.

And that's all there is to it. Blackjack itself isn't broken, the only broken part is the highly countable way of dealing it with deep penetration. You can fix it, but prefer not to, because the exploitable deep-penetration version is more profitable. The price for that extra profit is that skilled players will have +EV.

Surely you'd rather they didn't, but saying "cheaters!!" a million times won't change the fact that it's the version of the game you choose to offer with full knowledge that gives good players an advantage, not any altering of the elements of chance that determine the outcome.

Quote: EvenBob

Two AC casinos, Resorts and Boardwalk,
offered a special deal to BJ counters in 1979.

Where was this Boardwalk casino?

It was probably "under the boardwalk down by the sea".

There were 3 casinos in Atlantic City in 1979- Resorts, Bally's, and Caesars. The only Boardwalk Casino that I know of was on the Vegas strip.

Quote: Paigowdan

Yes it is - and it's a great way to get a clear idea of the situation.
Card counting is hacking the game of blackjack:
1. If the game is offered unrestricted without ANY counter-measures of AP play, it a complete loss drain for the house as a game offering, and it is gone, as some hackers will kill the game off entirely, killing the non-hacker "recreational players" of the game in the process.
2. Counter-measures to restirct AP play or "hacks" at the game are put in place - in the real world - to keep the game offering viable for the houses, and to great lament and complaint from the cc afficiandos.

Card counting may be hacking the game of blackjack, but it's a game that the casino invites to hack. It's VERY simple to install a CSM. It's very simple to have an early shuffle. Countermeasures are easy, but it hasn't happened. Why? Because casinos realize that most hackers are not very good - it just invites more losing players to the game.

Counting is becoming less viable only because the business intelligence has improved to recognize the counters. The casino has the best of both worlds: they can back off the advantage players and take the money from the players who believe that they have the skill but don't.

Quote: SanchoPanza

Where was this Boardwalk casino?

In 1979 its was called Caesars Boardwalk casino.