FleaStiff
FleaStiff
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April 11th, 2017 at 7:11:09 PM permalink
In the old days loyalty was emphasized. Casinos treated employees well because they knew how much a poor or dishonest employee could cost them. For a long time, its been screw the employees, they cost us money.

Loyalty is not common in any industry these days.

Yes, break in places lose their employees but they work them alot first and don't pay them much.

A friendly reasonably paced game at Stations sure beats other joints, where you get written up for the slightest infraction, but dealers often enjoy the lure of more money in the toke packet.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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April 11th, 2017 at 8:04:33 PM permalink
Quote: sodawater

This is one of the most offensive statements I have ever read.

Wow.

What do you suppose these "disloyal" dealers owe to these properties aside from an honest day's work? A lifetime of indentured servitude? Maybe we should go back to feudalism so that the corporate masters can never be inconvenienced.


No. I myself, before on many occasions,, gave extended notice (two weeks to two months+), and did so to help staffing needs. This included an engineering firm in NY before I left for Vegas, and also Stations, when I opened the spa. Now, I try to leave with proper notice so that no one (employer or employee) gets T-boned. Stations in particular has a well-coordinated internal transfer procedure that gets workers and the employer better attuned to practicing better departure, notice, and transfer practices, but still there's a bit of "hey, I'm gone, no notice, good bye" attitudes when it comes to the lower break-in properties.

I think No-showing as "giving notice," (or walking off those who give notice) as a way of handling staffing needs is the feudalistic action here. Abrupt departures by some break-ins seems to have gotten me called in to fill in more quickly, and it's a sign that some of this went down. You work with people of an outfit for months or years, there should be some dialog and coordination.

Quote: sodawater

Are these dealers not free to pursue their economic opportunities?


Sure they are allowed to pursue opportunities, and I never said otherwise.
For many, when giving notice, it includes a transition period so that a replacement can be found.
When people "No show/No call" as a way of leaving jobs, it puts the employer who offered you a job in a very bad position. Roulette and crap dealer departures can put a smaller or break-in house in the lurch. Many break-in dealers, as well as some small casino employers, are oblivious to proper personnel/staff changes others aren't.
Quote: SW

Do you think that the Stations properties would ever hesitate to lay off these dealers the instant it was more profitable to do so?


Yes, or at least try in good faith and with some positive results. Stations had saved jobs during the 2008 economic crunch when many others were just firing off employees then. Hours were reduced and shifts times changed in many cases, but it beats the old "We're in a crunch, and there's the door" approach that other operators had used. People remember this about them.

Quote: sodawater

Do you think these dealers' rents and grocery bills will go down once they have affirmed they turned down a higher-paying job to display loyalty to a corporation that wouldn't know them as anything more than a number on a spreadsheet?


No one was asked to undergo reduced incomes, or to reject higher paying jobs; I implied here that no notice was given, and in gaming, typically abrupt departures or terminations are all too common, and I'm against that. Some dealers resign by not giving notice, and other places fire on the spot those who do give proper notice. If this is how you think or expect any business - including gaming - should be run, well, I disagree. And too often it does run this way. It depends on the people.

Quote: sodawater

I have heard of capitalist-oligarchy apologists but your statement above really takes the cake for corporate toadying.


I think your position and attitude takes the cake. If people give and receive orderly notice to/from employers, this doesn't make for "capitalist-oligarchy apologies," it makes for orderly transitions with financial protections, and it should be done.
Last edited by: Paigowdan on Apr 11, 2017
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
TomG
TomG
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April 11th, 2017 at 10:33:03 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Apparently, a number of younger dealers left after acquiring skills at some Stations properties when things in the city picked up, and basically said to their properties, "Thanks for believing in me, and thanks for teaching me; I'm now off to the strip for more money. Goodbye to you,' displaying little loyalty for the investment that Stations had extended to them.



If Stations shares these same values, it's quite obvious why the employees didn't want to stay there
Dyvan13
Dyvan13
Joined: May 27, 2016
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April 12th, 2017 at 12:50:22 AM permalink
I'm not employed in the casino industry, but I am employed in a corporate service/hospitality industry. I can relate.
Last edited by: Dyvan13 on Apr 12, 2017
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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April 12th, 2017 at 2:10:22 AM permalink
Quote: TomG

If Stations shares these same values, it's quite obvious why the employees didn't want to stay there


No, I don't think they do.
People will leave for high-paying places and then actually find them rougher; many later come back.

I see the industry having been in other industries (education and data processing), and in casino work, most outfits are like "Who are you, and why do I care!" about dealers, with Stations being quite a bit less along those lines for the most part.

I guess many break-ins do not yet know the industry fully and how each outfit runs, until they 'see the world" a bit more.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
ThenWhatHappens
ThenWhatHappens
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April 12th, 2017 at 2:19:10 PM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

but dealers often enjoy the lure of more money in the toke packet.


Recent disclosure from one dealer said they no longer get the toke envelopes, it is now added to there check.

Many companies will walk an employee out upon receiving notice. The one I know of does it for security purposes, but they also pay for the two weeks you were willing to work.

Any industry with a learning curve is going to have their entry level and stepping stone companies. I think Dan's main point is don't burn bridges if you can help it.

There is a term for the extra money you get when you take a job that has more hassles, we call it the bullsh*t premium.
Don't forget, "FREE" is a four letter word.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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Thanks for this post from:
SanchoPanza
April 12th, 2017 at 2:43:14 PM permalink
Quote: ThenWhatHappens


Any industry with a learning curve is going to have their entry level and stepping stone companies. I think Dan's main point is don't burn bridges if you can help it.

There is a term for the extra money you get when you take a job that has more hassles, we call it the bullsh*t premium.


Very true. Those running off while flipping the bird get onto a 'do not rehire' status.

The bullsh*t premium is very true, and conversely, there a 'fairness benefit' other places have, and newbie dealers neither see no account for these factors until they go out into the world a bit....

When I originally joined Stations in 2006, I was made full time very quickly, given a pension plan, and A to Z health insurance that could only be described a huge. At the time, I thought, "fine, okay, thanks...' but I ended up needing the insurance after a bad heart attack in 2007; the co-pay was pocket change, specialist co-pays were like $20, (and the Shift Manager visited twice).
Looking back on this, the health plan was twice the typical plan such an outfit usually gives, and in hindsight it really saved my ass; financially, my life from that point on was saved when it could have been on a destroyed path from that point on, and I didn't see its full role until later. But for the grace of God go I, as they say. This is in addition to employees being kept on during the crunch of 2008. In terms of being capitalist-oligarchic meanies, they were the opposite, a really a decent place. If I had been an on-call dealer at a strip place for more tips and the B.S premium - but no benies, I would have been cleaned out, kicked to the curb, and on a different path.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
MrV
MrV
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April 12th, 2017 at 3:42:25 PM permalink
Back when dicedealer.com was up and running, I followed the discussions of Las Vegas dealers, and it was clear that THE WAY TO GO was to start at a break in joint, then work your way up to the premier jobs at the glamour casinos on the strip.

I assumed the lower tier joints expected that most dealers would want to move on and upward if possible.

Good to see that mid-level joints like Stations take care of their crews.
"What, me worry?"
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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Thanks for this post from:
SanchoPanza
April 12th, 2017 at 5:49:10 PM permalink
That was the assumption, sure.
But there is a finite amount of premier places: if the top 10% of all places are great paying, then 90% of dealers would have to work at mid-level or average places, and this doesn't account for other factors like the bulls]t premium, the commute, the political pit environment, and the like. People don't know their own best fit in life, and it's hard to see as a break-in, in any field.

It's like college admissions: life is not over if Harvard, Yale, and MIT turn you down; graduating in good standing from The University of Chicago, Notre Dame or from Stony Brook is nothing to feel bad about.

The healthiest dealers I know, life-wise, aren't Wynn or Caesars dealers but Red Rock, Rampart, Green Valley and the M dealers.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Boz
Boz
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April 12th, 2017 at 9:19:55 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Quote: Doc

Way back in May of five years ago, a day after we held WoVCon ][, a few of us had what we called WoVCon ][.1 -- we went out to Fiesta Henderson to play, hoping to catch you dealing at our crap table. You were assigned to a different game that night, but we did see you briefly. So where are you dealing now, same place or a new spot?



Yes, Fiesta Henderson, and on dice, Pai Gow Poker, Blackjack, Ultimate Texas Hold 'em, and Three Card Poker. Everything except Roulette. 60% craps, 30% Pai Gow Poker (All commission-free, ahem), and 10% Ultimate Texas Hold 'em, often a fill-in for a sick call in. Rarely is it Blackjack, and no roulette,
Stations had recently called me back, via a shift manager.

Apparently, a number of younger dealers left after acquiring skills at some Stations properties when things in the city picked up, and basically said to their properties, "Thanks for believing in me, and thanks for teaching me; I'm now off to the strip for more money. Goodbye to you,' displaying little loyalty for the investment that Stations had extended to them.

Some dealers stayed because the environment is more friendly and lower pressure (meaning less sweating of things, better politics, fairer treatment, and less 'talk-down" peon abuse from higher ups, a hallmark of Stations superiority in employee treatment).



While this discussion has changed to leaving with proper notice, I see nothing in the original post stating these people walked out without notice. I think we can all agree that giving 2 weeks notice is the proper thing to do. If the company choices not to accept it, that is on them, not the employee. But no employee should ever be upset that an employee left for what they see as a better situation. Doing the right thing when leaving usually allows that person to come back if the grass isn't greener.

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