new bet: "juice"

Here is an idea for an optional bet geared toward attracting more higher denomination place betting.

The casino can set the qualifying or entry level bet amount, but for purposes of explanation I will set it at $30.

I call it "juice."

Stated simply, it is only available on bets which were made and kept up before the table's shooter makes his PL point; the shooter then has a new come out roll, and once he sets a point number a "juice" bet is available for place bets which were made and kept up in the earlier round.

"Juice" is making an odds bet on a place number, and the amount the bettor can bet is no greater than one-half of the amount of the place bet.

If the place bet is $30, a $15 "juice" bet can be made, and shown on the layout the same way an odds bet on a come bet is shown, by placing the "juice" chips astride the place bet.

The place bet pays off at the usual level; the juice bet pays off at true odds.

Example: a $30 place bet on the six pays off at 7/6, or $35, and the optional $15 "juice" bet pays off at true odds of $18.

Once made, the amount of the "juice" bet can not be increased, even if the bettor chooses to press his corresponding place bet.

To make the bet, the player puts the chips on the layout and says "juice the six."

So you are saying you could place the 10 for 10. If the 10 comes up then you get paid $18 but now also have the option of taking odds on your 10 for $5? Another 10 comes up and you get paid $18 plus $10?

What happens to the odds bet now. Does it stay up? I don't think a casino is going to like an odds bet that stays up with no chance of HE. At least with a come bet you have to keep the come bet going in order to stay up which gives them the HE.

Also why would the casino like someone taking juice when most place bettors will press their bet. They are now allowing a high HE bet to become a free bet.

Casinos consider nothing wrong with the existing place/buy bets, allowing free odds only on the PL bet.

And now, you're going to have two payout tables for each place number, where dealers have to keep track of more bets and can screw it up - all for no house income/revenue. Sweet idea that's pie in the sky.

Yes, more work is involved, and less profit.

Savvy, well-heeled crapsters (Hello, Phil Ivey) might want to request this, as they do other forms of accomodation from the casino in order to lure them and their big bankroll to play at their tables.

Make the qualifying place bet be a minimum of $1000 or even $5000.

The house still has an edge, just not quite as big.

But no, I don't expect to see it in casinos, but a sharp big player might want to request it.

Quote: MrV

But no, I don't expect to see it in casinos, but a sharp big player might want to request it.

Big players can add a put bet and then make free odds on any box number, in addition to their place bet. Big players can request a lot of things, such as turning cards around 180 degrees on a baccarat game to edge sort. We've seen that.

When casino personnel get special requests to change and make game rules, a red flag should go off.

I don't see a rule change to craps coming anytime soon.

Since a place bet is nothing more than a put bet with a prescribed odds multiplier, why can't the player merely convert his place bet to be a put bet, and add additional odds?

Of course, this assumes the casino allows put bets (not all do), and has normal odds greater than 3-4-5.

But since the typical bettor will already have a pass line bet down and be putting odds behind it, there seems to be no point of this 'juice' bet.

Further, for some weird reason, many players who make place bets without a pass line bet, will move their place bet OFF the new point when a new point is established. I'd really like to know the logic of that.

But bottom line, I see no advantage to either the casino or bettor in the 'juice' bet.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

But bottom line, I see no advantage to either the casino or bettor in the 'juice' bet.

Neither do I but if you intend to "sell" this bet to some Director of Table Games you MUST change the name.

JUICE is already a well known term in Vegas.

Juice means "influence"....... as in "juiced in" meaning "he got hired because he knew someone big, didn't even have to audition" Or a woman who applies for a Tray Lizard job while wearing a pants suit and gets as her first shift: Evenings, Sat and Sun. You can bet she was "Juiced in". Doesn't get her chest measured, doesn't have to display her legs, gets a prime shift right off. You bet she has Juice.

LOL

I've no intention of selling this bet.

Fact is, it first occurred to me while I was waking up this morning.

A mere notion.

As for put bets: can they be made at any time, or must the bet be made immediately after the number to be put is rolled by the shooter?

Quote: MrV

A mere notion.

Oh well, at least you had a humorous introduction to a very important word in Vegas.

>>>>>>>>As for put bets: can they be made at any time, or must the bet be made immediately after the number to be put is rolled by the shooter?

As with everything, it can be done anytime the Box lets your dealer do it.
Some casinos: "Whats a put bet"?

My understanding is you can even simply walk up and make your first bet a put bet ... since it is in the house's advantage to let you forgo that win on eleven that you otherwise would have.

Better ask DeMango and PaiGowDan our resident Craps Experts though. As usual, Fleastiff knows NOTHING about what he spouts.

I used the word "juice" as in "squeezing more juice out of the orange."

The whole idea of the proposal is to encourage very large place bets to stay up, and not be pulled down.

By allowing odds on a place bet which has survived the first round, it gives the place bettor added value, i.e. a slightly higher return rate than he'd get by pressing an equivalent amount.

Thus, he squeezes more "juice" out of his bet.

Again, it is designed only for large bets, as it requires more work by the dealers and the house would be lowering its edge a bit.

Quote: MrV

I used the word "juice" as in "squeezing more juice out of the orange."

The whole idea of the proposal is to encourage very large place bets to stay up, and not be pulled down.

By allowing odds on a place bet which has survived the first round, it gives the place bettor added value, i.e. a slightly higher return rate than he'd get by pressing an equivalent amount.

Thus, he squeezes more "juice" out of his bet.

Again, it is designed only for large bets, as it requires more work by the dealers and the house would be lowering its edge a bit.

Offering large buy bets with vig-on-win and lower commissions also solves that problem. Anything over the target minimum ($100?) is paid as vig-on-win, with the commissions set at 5% for 4/10, 4% for 5/9, and 3% for 6/8. House edges are 1.67%, 1.6%, and 1.36%, respectively.

The house already converts place bets to buys on 4/10 when they get big enough anyway, so this is just an extension of that thinking.

How about calling it the Juicy bet?

My opinion is that casinos are looking to get players to bet more on the high house edge bets in craps. You might argue the point of the Downtown Grand offering no-commission buy bets on the 4 and 10. Well, I think that is a gimmick to get player who will hopefully bet other stuff too.

My prediction of the future of craps is the Odds will continue to be depressed and then pays on the other bets will start to be cut. That is the direction I would swim if trying to sell a new bet.

Quote: Wizard

You might argue the point of the Downtown Grand offering no-commission buy bets on the 4 and 10.

That argument won't go very far. I was there two weeks ago. DTG is no longer offering those free buy bets. :(