Bellagio Craps and Comps

Hi guys,

I was hoping someone could answer the following regarding Craps at the Bellagio. I'm not chasing comps but would obviously like to maximise.

1) to get some decent comps everyone on the forums always say you need to have 4 hours play per day.
a) does this need to be 4 hours straight or could you get away with 1 hour in the morning, 1 hour in the afternoon and 2 hours at nigh?. Is there any benefit/penalties for splitting play time?
b) what is a playing day in Vegas? I.e, if you are betting 1am Sunday morning does that count as Saturday night or Sunday?

2) I'm arriving very late on my first night, and may not get in 4 hours. Am I better not handing over my players card not to drag down my average play time as I'd still like to gamble? Staying 4 days.

3) does the Bellagio count your full spread (minus odds I presume) as your average bet? I.e. if I bet $100 on pass line, $100 odds, $120 on 6, $120 on 8 and $10 any craps would equate my average bet as $350 or would it be less?

4) if I decide to play another game such ad BJ or slots for a short amount of time am I better not handing over my players card not to drag down my average play time/spend?

Thanks in advance for your responses.
J

Quote: Jrourke

3) does the Bellagio count your full spread (minus odds I presume) as your average bet? I.e. if I bet $100 on pass line, $100 odds, $120 on 6, $120 on 8 and $10 any craps would equate my average bet as $350 or would it be less?

They do not count your odds. BTW, it is much better to take full 3x/4x/5x odds and to make come bets than to bet 6/8/any. Same amount on the table, much better odds.

If you are coming in with a bankroll of 50k or more, they will give you a much better deal if you contact them in advance than if you just show up betting at that level.

Four hours is more impressive than three hours but if you get too tired to think straight that fourth hour will be costly, so stop when you need to. A three hour session where you have your wits about you will impress everyone there more than a four hour session that is beyond your standing or alcohol tolerance.

Hand over your card right away at all times. It gains you nothing to withhold it. Even if its a short stint awaiting someone's arrival or departure or some event, use the card.

Black chips in play are always noted favorably, even if don't quite play to your full advantage... black chips get noticed.

ALL casinos have a Treasury Department determined day that starts at whatever time the casino designates in its IRS paperwork. Usually casinos designate four or three in the morning as the start of their "day" for Federal currency purposes. MOST casinos computer programs also know the same meaning of the word "day" for other purposes such as Comps, coupons, etc.

Quote: teliot

They do not count your odds. BTW, it is much better to take full 3x/4x/5x odds and to make come bets than to bet 6/8/any. Same amount on the table, much better odds.

If you are coming in with a bankroll of 50k or more, they will give you a much better deal if you contact them in advance than if you just show up betting at that level.

Thanks teliot, so I assume my average bet would be seen as $350 with either of the below?

a) $100 on pass line, $x odds, $120 on 6, $120 on 8 and $10 any craps.
b) $100 on pass line, $x odds, $100 come bet1, $100 come bet2, $30 any craps,.

Quote: FleaStiff

Hand over your card right away at all times. It gains you nothing to withhold it. Even if its a short stint awaiting someone's arrival or departure or some event, use the card.

Thanks Fleastiff for clarifying this wouldn't drag my average down over my trip.

Quote: teliot

If you are coming in with a bankroll of 50k or more, they will give you a much better deal if you contact them in advance than if you just show up betting at that level.

I agree. Call in ahead of time, get a host, and deposit your cash in the cage. Take out markers when you need them, and make it known how much you're down. It will save you from having to carry around cash/go to the ATM, and the casino will notice your play immediately.

If you're coming in late the first night, don't worry about gambling. First off, you'll be tired, and won't get the enjoyment out of your play (which is the most important part). Second, you'll be more likely to make silly mistakes which could cost you. Personally, I'd save that cash for a longer run at the tables on day 2. Your "average daily theoretical" (ADT) will be the same regardless of it you play 2 six hour sessions versus 3 four hour sessions. Plus, if you're playing at this level, a casino host is going to review your play, not a machine. In my experience, most casino hosts don't take it out against you for going to bed if you get in at 3 am :)

Quote: Jrourke

Thanks Fleastiff for clarifying this wouldn't drag my average down over my trip.

As Fleastiff said, if you are playing black chip all the time, then always give them your card. But, if you would be playing BJ at $25 / hand, then I would not give them my card. That will definitely whack your avg bet rating, and your theoretical loss calculations.
If you are there for 4 days, that would be 3 nights, so they would be looking for around 12 hours of play for the whole trip. If you only get 2 or 3 hours in that first night, it will not be a big deal, if by the end of the trip you have 15 or 16 hours of play.
i have been told that ratings for players from out of state are calculated a bit differently from 'local' players. I have been told a local player should use their card every time, regardless of what level they are betting. For a local player, more time is better than a high average.

One final comment. giving the dealer $2,000 cash to buy into a game is noticeable. But getting a marker for $2,000 to draw against your casino credit line, or against cash you have on deposit, seems to carry more weight. Stay within your limits, but utilizing the markers seems to help your ratings.

Quote: FleaStiff

ALL casinos have a Treasury Department determined day that starts at whatever time the casino designates in its IRS paperwork. Usually casinos designate four or three in the morning as the start of their "day" for Federal currency purposes. MOST casinos computer programs also know the same meaning of the word "day" for other purposes such as Comps, coupons, etc.

Yeah not sure when Bellagio is, but CET properties in Vegas are 6am.

Cosmo is actually midnight?!?!?!

Quote: Jrourke

1) to get some decent comps everyone on the forums always say you need to have 4 hours play per day.
a) does this need to be 4 hours straight or could you get away with 1 hour in the morning, 1 hour in the afternoon and 2 hours at nigh?. Is there any benefit/penalties for splitting play time?
b) what is a playing day in Vegas? I.e, if you are betting 1am Sunday morning does that count as Saturday night or Sunday?

2) I'm arriving very late on my first night, and may not get in 4 hours. Am I better not handing over my players card not to drag down my average play time as I'd still like to gamble? Staying 4 days.

3) does the Bellagio count your full spread (minus odds I presume) as your average bet? I.e. if I bet $100 on pass line, $100 odds, $120 on 6, $120 on 8 and $10 any craps would equate my average bet as $350 or would it be less?

4) if I decide to play another game such ad BJ or slots for a short amount of time am I better not handing over my players card not to drag down my average play time.

In summary this far I've taken the following. Thanks.

1) a) it doesn't matter if its 4 hours straight or split playing time.

1) b) unclear what MGM play hours are at the moment.

2) unless I'm getting some serious time in on the first night or until 1b) is clear it may be worth not using my card.

3) my average bet would be the spread minus any odds.

4) don't use my card if I bet low for a few hands of BJ. From my understanding any slots play is measured separately from my table play?

Quote: Jrourke

In summary this far I've taken the following. Thanks.

1) a) it doesn't matter if its 4 hours straight or split playing time.

1) b) unclear what MGM play hours are at the moment.

2) unless I'm getting some serious time in on the first night or until 1b) is clear it may be worth not using my card.

3) my average bet would be the spread minus any odds.

4) don't use my card if I bet low for a few hands of BJ. From my understanding any slots play is measured separately from my table play?

on 1a - This is correct, but most games(craps might be the worst) have issues with short sessions. While 4 1 hr sessions might be similar to 1 4hr session, don't think you can do 12 15 minute sessions and get the same rating. The shorting the session the more inaccurate it will be(ie 20 minutes might end up being 12 becaues the bit poss wasn't exact on times getting in/out.


My understanding is that MLife uses a 5 day window for a trip. I'm not sure if you would really hurt yourself by using your card the first night. If you are playing at the same average, I've assumed 20 hours at $350 over your trip looks better than 18 hours at $350. You still were at the hotel for X nights. You still used the room and didn't gamble(as far as they are concerned). If you are only playing for 15-60 minutes, then I probably wouldn't bother. More than an hour expected though and I think you would be missing out on some comps.




A few people mentioned above to get a host and I agree with this. They would be able to tell you a yes or no.

I also agree that you shouldn't use your card on other games where your bet size may be significantly smaller. $350/bet at craps and $100/bet at BJ would probably be fine(again ask the host to be sure). Going down to $15/bet BJ though is something I would avoid using your card on.

Quote: soulhunt79

My understanding is that MLife uses a 5 day window for a trip.

This has confused me. Am I rated on my average daily play or the average through the duration of my stay?

If it's the latter I guess it wouldn't matter if I only played an hour on my first day

This has caused some confusion before.

Sometimes a short last-minute fling in the casino just after checking out of a hotel is viewed as a separate trip (You just checked out, remember). This makes their computer think you had a very short trip and spent very little money when in reality you were just killing a few odd hours until it was nearer your flight's departure time.

This is rare. Most places have upgraded software (and upgraded their hosts) to have more brains.

Also. Play at very low limits will not detract from your overall attractiveness. If you have wired funds in advance, contacted a host, drawn markers at high limit tables and then want go sit down at a piddling little table game mainly for the chair ... it won't pull you down. Any accurate and honest picture of your gambling profile will help you. They are happy to see you do your low level stuff at their casino rather than elsewhere.

So I say give your card over right away and even if you don't do well and leave promptly... you still have a good impression with their comp system.

Quote: Jrourke

This has confused me. Am I rated on my average daily play or the average through the duration of my stay?

If it's the latter I guess it wouldn't matter if I only played an hour on my first day

The problem is that no one really knows for sure. So and so says their host told them X, but High Roller Bill said HIS host said Y, which doesn't match up, and the publicly-available docs on such things are not going to give you a clue. So it's take a guess and hope for the best...IMO...

I guess each resort will be different on daily/duration average calculations.

Quote: FleaStiff

This has caused some confusion before.

Sometimes a short last-minute fling in the casino just after checking out of a hotel is viewed as a separate trip (You just checked out, remember). This makes their computer think you had a very short trip and spent very little money when in reality you were just killing a few odd hours until it was nearer your flight's departure time.

This is rare. Most places have upgraded software (and upgraded their hosts) to have more brains.

Also. Play at very low limits will not detract from your overall attractiveness. If you have wired funds in advance, contacted a host, drawn markers at high limit tables and then want go sit down at a piddling little table game mainly for the chair ... it won't pull you down. Any accurate and honest picture of your gambling profile will help you. They are happy to see you do your low level stuff at their casino rather than elsewhere.

So I say give your card over right away and even if you don't do well and leave promptly... you still have a good impression with their comp system.

|Edit: If you have an assigned host, the host will know your play. BUT, if the system calculates a lower average because you played low ball BJ for 3 hours, it WILL count against you. The host can override the system, but they can't change what the system has calculated. Why risk it? Getting credit for 3 hours of $20 BJ does you no good. Best you got was $1 in comp points.
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FleaStiff, I have to disagree with this, as it certainly is contrary to my experience. As a later poster wrote, it may vary greatly by each casino, and I would agree wholeheartedly with that assesment. I am positive it makes a difference if you are a local player, or a player that travels in for a trip over a few days.

In any event, when I was checking my play at Beau Rivage after each session, I quickly found out that the 3 hours I spent playing Pai Gow poker at $25 was not helping me at all. It added to my total hours played, and total cash in, but it killed my Average bet size, and that is the number that seems to carry more weight when certain comps are coming into play.
Am I giving away some tier credits? For certain. But my average bet stays higher, which gives the casino the impression that I am a bigger player, and if they can get me there, I will give them bunches more of money. So they offer cruises, and $500 Visa cards, and fancy watches, if I will show up and stay free, for 3 days.

Quote: teliot

They do not count your odds. BTW, it is much better to take full 3x/4x/5x odds and to make come bets than to bet 6/8/any. Same amount on the table, much better odds.

Beware, craps is far more complex than "which bet has the lowest house % ?". Do you want action? Do you want to minimize EV? How much variation are you willing to handle? Often when a player is just playing (eg) $25 on the pass line with maybe $200 on the rail behind, a "friendly" player or dealer will chime in, advising them to put out max odds. Instead of living through 8 consecutive losses, that player will bust out after only 2 bad games. Not only will the house not rate you any higher but an earlier bust out could mean even crappier comps. Imagine stepping up to the table with $7000, suffer four really crappy hands, and you won't even have enough comps for a buffet. But hey! Your expected loss looked pretty good!

Alright, so let's look at a $350 bet. All of it on the line will give you an EV of about -$120/hr and 1SD of $1500. Throw in 3x4x5x odds and although your EV stays the same you could have over $2000 on the table and an SD of around $7000/hr. Drop to $70+max odds and you're putting ~$350 on the table with an EV of -$25/hr and a 1SD of $1500. Now take a mixed strategy similar to what the OP proposed with $350 on the table: $25 line + full odds + $10 craps + $120 placed 6 and 8 yields an EV of -$120/hr, provide more action, and a 1SD/hr of about $2100. Pick your poison!

Relevant notes:
- The pass line has a -1.41% EV and SD of 1x your bet. In an hour, 1SD will be about 5x your bet.
- Odds have a 0% EV but SD/hr of 4x of whatever you put down
- Don't Pass is a miniscule improvement over the Pass: -1.40% EV
- Placed 6 or 8 has an EV and SD very similar to the pass line; -1.52% EV
- Buying or laying the 4 and 10 are pretty good bets; -1.67% EV
- The field isn't too bad; about -2.4% EV
- Placing 5 or 9 gets sketchy; -4% EV
- Placed 4 or 10, hardways, and hops are all sucker bets; -8.33% to -16.67
- Any Craps (2,3,12) at most MGM properties is -11.11%. 3-way craps will be about -8.3% if I remember my payouts correctly.
- On the other hand, sucker bets can help your rating and provide a hedge

Any hedge bet will be a tradeoff of more -EV for less SD. Assuming you had infinite bankroll, hedges are bad. Assuming you'd rather not bust out early, hedges are good. If you're in Vegas to minimize your EV, your best bet is no bet. But I'm assuming that you're like me, and enjoy a little bit of action -- as long as it isn't too expensive.

Quote: soulhunt79

I also agree that you shouldn't use your card on other games where your bet size may be significantly smaller. $350/bet at craps and $100/bet at BJ would probably be fine(again ask the host to be sure). Going down to $15/bet BJ though is something I would avoid using your card on.

I'm going to disagree on this. I've asked a handful of hosts at several MGM properties, and they all said that average bet only matters for a session, and gets rolled into ADT anyway. If you sit down at a quarter slot machine and bet 50c or 75c/spin for a half hour, it adds to your ADT. Normally play BJ at $200/hand, and decide to sit down and play for $25 cuz you're waiting for a dinner reservation? No big deal; give them your card.

I've also seen that out-of-state players get comps dependent on ATT -- average trip theo -- and not ADT. If you stay 3 nights but only gamble 2 days, they don't care; your offers will still be "3 nights + X". You won't get stiffed for skipping that first night, or for light play on the day you leave, nor will they discard betting after you check out after a 3-night stay.