Conflict at the Silverton today
April 18th, 2013 at 9:50:12 AM
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I had a conflict at the Silverton today. I was shooting for 8's and I had a $120 eight and a $10 hard 8. I put six green chips on the come and I say "press the eight."
As I am throwing the dice, the boxman books the bet as a $240 eight instead of the $270 it should have been. I roll a 6-2.
When he tries to explain that I only got $120 pressure instead of $150 pressure, I flipped out.
He claimed that since I said "press" full pressure is only $120.
I said, "I didn't know if I had $90 or $120 on the eight already, I wanted $150 pressure."
Basically he was taking the position that $30 of the increase that I wanted was not possible because I said "press up the eight."
Of course I don't know everything, and I have never heard that pressure means that your are limited to double the amount you already have on the bet.
But this pissed me off so much, that I made a huge scene and I told them, "so we're arguing over $35 here, basically."
There were two previous events where I had a hard 8 working for $5 on the comeout and rolled an easy six. Two different sticks take my hard 8 down when I rolled an easy six on the comeout.
All three of these conflicts happened in a 30 minute time span.
I called back and talked to Anthony who was the floor manager at the time, and I told him how upset I was about how I was treated with regards to this conflict.
I'm not mentioning the names of the three dealers that made these three mistakes; it's not even about the specific dealers. But in general, they should not be having these things happen. It was a completely empty table and there are three people attending to my three bets!! A $5 DC, and 8 working and a hard 8 working. HOW FUCKING HARD CAN IT BE TO GET IT RIGHT PEOPLE?!?! This isn't a failure of one person, this is a failure of the entire casino!!!
He said he would have resolved it if I hadn't left so fast. I colored up and got out of there. I was so pissed off about this I was afraid I might go to jail if I stayed there and argue with them over $35.
Now I know I am wrong to get upset about this, but WTF?! How can they not book $150 more on my eight when I put six greens on the come and say "press the 8?!?!" And then go on to argue with me about how they're booking my bet as my arm is swinging for the throw at $240 instead of the $270 I wanted?!?!
As I am throwing the dice, the boxman books the bet as a $240 eight instead of the $270 it should have been. I roll a 6-2.
When he tries to explain that I only got $120 pressure instead of $150 pressure, I flipped out.
He claimed that since I said "press" full pressure is only $120.
I said, "I didn't know if I had $90 or $120 on the eight already, I wanted $150 pressure."
Basically he was taking the position that $30 of the increase that I wanted was not possible because I said "press up the eight."
Of course I don't know everything, and I have never heard that pressure means that your are limited to double the amount you already have on the bet.
But this pissed me off so much, that I made a huge scene and I told them, "so we're arguing over $35 here, basically."
There were two previous events where I had a hard 8 working for $5 on the comeout and rolled an easy six. Two different sticks take my hard 8 down when I rolled an easy six on the comeout.
All three of these conflicts happened in a 30 minute time span.
I called back and talked to Anthony who was the floor manager at the time, and I told him how upset I was about how I was treated with regards to this conflict.
I'm not mentioning the names of the three dealers that made these three mistakes; it's not even about the specific dealers. But in general, they should not be having these things happen. It was a completely empty table and there are three people attending to my three bets!! A $5 DC, and 8 working and a hard 8 working. HOW FUCKING HARD CAN IT BE TO GET IT RIGHT PEOPLE?!?! This isn't a failure of one person, this is a failure of the entire casino!!!
He said he would have resolved it if I hadn't left so fast. I colored up and got out of there. I was so pissed off about this I was afraid I might go to jail if I stayed there and argue with them over $35.
Now I know I am wrong to get upset about this, but WTF?! How can they not book $150 more on my eight when I put six greens on the come and say "press the 8?!?!" And then go on to argue with me about how they're booking my bet as my arm is swinging for the throw at $240 instead of the $270 I wanted?!?!
aahigh.com
April 18th, 2013 at 9:58:11 AM
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Don't know the particulars of "full pressure" but, what did they do with the other $30 on the layout? Why, then, in the world would you put out 6 greens instead of 5 greens with one red change, I ask the box? Seems they screwed up.
Never count your winnings at hour 23 of a 24-hour drive.
April 18th, 2013 at 9:59:09 AM
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Aaron, do you believe if you seven'd out they would have given you the $30 back? If you do, then I wouldn't have made a big stink about it. If you think they would have just swept it all away then, yes, it is a big deal. If I were you I'd chalk it up as a learning experience. From now on be specific, as an example...say... "Add 150 to my 6, thank you!" Then proceed to roll your 6 -2. I will say, in your favor, is the fact you tossed them 6 chips, not 5. If you only intended to bump your bet $120 you would toss 5, not 6, chips.
April 18th, 2013 at 10:05:59 AM
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I was still pissed about not one but two different dealers making the exact same goddamn mistake taking my hard 8 down on an easy six on the comeout! I was taking that in stride and just joking about it.
The boxman at the time when I asked him "how come all the dealers are taking down my hard 8 on an easy 6?" He responded by saying "not all the dealers, just two of them." It wasn't 5 minutes until the final conflict.
The boxman gave me absolutely no slack at all. He didn't apologize. He only insisted that since I used the word "press" I couldn't have wanted $150 pressure because there was only $120 there to begin with. He said "full pressure is only $120."
Absolutely I can prevent this from happening again. But the last time I was there I had similar problems when I was rolling hard tens back to back and they were making ALL KINDS OF MISTAKES instead of just parlaying my hard tens like I asked them too.
They made so many mistakes on very basic stuff that I just said, "you know what everything down" before rolling the next hard ten on what would have been a $64 hard ten.
The EXACT SAME CREW.
And I'm not even blaming specific people. I really think that this is unacceptable performance for the entire group! I mean I am pissed off at these guys!
I told them on that hard ten thing as I tipped in a dollar, "this isn't a criticism, but a request. I expect you guys to get it right the first time and not be fumbling around trying to figure out what I want and slowing the game down. Keep things moving."
And that was the date when I was rolling all those hard tens just 11 days ago. Same crew!!!
The boxman at the time when I asked him "how come all the dealers are taking down my hard 8 on an easy 6?" He responded by saying "not all the dealers, just two of them." It wasn't 5 minutes until the final conflict.
The boxman gave me absolutely no slack at all. He didn't apologize. He only insisted that since I used the word "press" I couldn't have wanted $150 pressure because there was only $120 there to begin with. He said "full pressure is only $120."
Absolutely I can prevent this from happening again. But the last time I was there I had similar problems when I was rolling hard tens back to back and they were making ALL KINDS OF MISTAKES instead of just parlaying my hard tens like I asked them too.
They made so many mistakes on very basic stuff that I just said, "you know what everything down" before rolling the next hard ten on what would have been a $64 hard ten.
The EXACT SAME CREW.
And I'm not even blaming specific people. I really think that this is unacceptable performance for the entire group! I mean I am pissed off at these guys!
I told them on that hard ten thing as I tipped in a dollar, "this isn't a criticism, but a request. I expect you guys to get it right the first time and not be fumbling around trying to figure out what I want and slowing the game down. Keep things moving."
And that was the date when I was rolling all those hard tens just 11 days ago. Same crew!!!
aahigh.com
April 18th, 2013 at 10:09:59 AM
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That is what I would say too. The six greens have to go somewhere and any improper terminology or any ambiguous terminology has to be resolved. I'd of stood my ground on this one... patiently.Quote: bushmanDon't know the particulars of "full pressure" but, what did they do with the other $30 on the layout?
And as far as I know "Press" means to "increase" .... if you put down "X" chips that is how much they press by.
April 18th, 2013 at 10:11:52 AM
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Aaron,
They work in a casino...not NASA.
They work in a casino...not NASA.
Gambling calls to me...like this ~> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Nap37mNSmQ
April 18th, 2013 at 10:26:51 AM
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Aaron,
Not a craps expert here...but I've never heard of "press" meaning exactly double your original bet. I've seen people press with less or more than the original bet. So the casinos reasoning seems suspect to me. I think, the only thing you did wrong here was leave before speaking with the floorperson. Who from your own account seemed willing to resolve the dispute in your favor. So you have every reason to be pissed....but being a little more patient might have helped you get your full wager paid.
Just from reading your threads you seem like a regular at the Silverton right? So maybe avoid this dice crew?
Not a craps expert here...but I've never heard of "press" meaning exactly double your original bet. I've seen people press with less or more than the original bet. So the casinos reasoning seems suspect to me. I think, the only thing you did wrong here was leave before speaking with the floorperson. Who from your own account seemed willing to resolve the dispute in your favor. So you have every reason to be pissed....but being a little more patient might have helped you get your full wager paid.
Just from reading your threads you seem like a regular at the Silverton right? So maybe avoid this dice crew?
April 18th, 2013 at 10:27:58 AM
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While the dealers and box were clearly in the wrong, I think you also are partially responsible. Clarity of intention when it comes to making wagers is always best.
Personally, I would have put the chips straddling the come, not in the come, so as to not be confused that I'm making a large come bet. Then I would have said "go to $xxx on the 8" Especially since this isn't the most common wager.
Personally, I would have put the chips straddling the come, not in the come, so as to not be confused that I'm making a large come bet. Then I would have said "go to $xxx on the 8" Especially since this isn't the most common wager.
April 18th, 2013 at 10:35:00 AM
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Quote: wrecknballPersonally, I would have put the chips straddling the come, not in the come, so as to not be confused that I'm making a large come bet. Then I would have said "go to $xxx on the 8" Especially since this isn't the most common wager.
It was a come-out roll, so no action in the come, as a COME BET...
Gambling calls to me...like this ~> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Nap37mNSmQ
April 18th, 2013 at 10:39:53 AM
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Yeah the whole argument that full pressure is $120 sounded like total bullshit to me personally.
Bottom line is just that I'm real unhappy that they chose $35 as being what I'm worth as a customer.
Bottom line is just that I'm real unhappy that they chose $35 as being what I'm worth as a customer.
aahigh.com
.jpeg "Bohemian"){kind=small}
April 18th, 2013 at 10:47:24 AM
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Even though the Dealers were 100% wrong, you as a consumer are responsible for making sure they book the bet correctly before you roll.
April 18th, 2013 at 10:49:56 AM
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Quote: BohemianEven though the Dealers were 100% wrong, you as a consumer are responsible for making sure they book the bet correctly before you roll.
You know what, you're right about this, but it would have been different if this wasn't a 1-2-3 punch.
The second time I had to get the second dealer to put back up my $5 hard 8 it hit. So that would have been a $50 mistake if I didn't notice what happened.
The real problem has nothing even to do with money and just is the basic problem that this crew of dealers can't handle the most BASIC needs of dealing the goddamn game! And then to be unapologetic and come up with "full pressure means $120" is just bullshit!!!
I never used the word full, either. I simply said "press up the 8" and put 6 greens on the come. That was it.
I can't IMAGINE how there would be any question about this!! Press up the 8!!! I didn't say change. I didn't say how much. I put the chips in the come and I say "press up the eight" that means press the goddamn thing up!!! That doesn't mean fumble around trying to figure out what I mean for the 5 seconds it takes me to grab the dice and make a throw.
aahigh.com
April 18th, 2013 at 11:30:26 AM
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Quote: TIMSPEEDAaron,
They work in a casino...not NASA.
And it's the Silverton, not Wynn or Bellagio. In general (not always), better dealers find their way to better casinos.
Quote: AhighBottom line is just that I'm real unhappy that they chose $35 as being what I'm worth as a customer.
Didn't I just tell you a few days ago that you're not what you think you are there? You don't understand the normal dealer mentality. You're a tip to them. If you were worth anything to them they would have apologized and taken care of you. Most businesses would handle it that way with a regular customer.
ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
April 18th, 2013 at 11:37:50 AM
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You mentioned a couple of things.
To begin with, the casino is wrong in not paying you the full amount on your eight place bet.
"Pressure" does NOT only mean to double your existing bet--though it can mean that in some situations.
Only when there is an existing place bet that has just been won, and you say "press the eight"--then that does mean to double the place bet (with the other chips that were won going to the player).
However, in your situation, there was not a winning place bet that is in the process of being paid. You put out 6 green chips to be bet. In this instance, the phrase "press the eight" means to increase the existing place bet on the eight by the amount that you have put out in additional chips.
Your situation is even clearer since if you only intended to double the amount of your existing $120 place bet, you would have only put out 5 green chips and expected $5 in change. It make no sense that you would have given the dealers 6 green chips to increase your existing place bet by only $120.
It is not necessary in your situation to say "press my eight to $270" though that would have eliminated any confusion--and that is a good way to handle your "pressure bets" in the future.
Another reason it is not necessary to expressly state that you wanted all 6 green chips to be used to increase your bet is the fact that the $150 by which you are increasing your bet pays off properly ($175) as a place bet on the eight.
In my view it is only necessary in a situation like yours to expressly state how much you want to press your existing bet is if you want to bet something less than the amount of your chips that you are putting out and there is going to be some change.
You also state in your post that they were "booking your bet as your arm is swinging"--does that mean that they moved all 6 green chips to the place eight? Again, if so, it is even clearer the casino was in the wrong.
Which leads us to the second thing--
Why was your arm swinging as they were booking your bet? The table was empty and your were the only player.
Why did the stickperson pass you the dice while you were in the process of increasing the bet on the eight? And even if the stick passed you the dice quickly, why did you roll the dice before the bet was resolved? You had full control of the table. It could not be because you were getting a "late" bet out, since you are the shooter. Were you in a hurry?
In that respect, you contributed to the issue by shooting too quickly--but that does not excuse the casino and they should have recognized your place bet of $270.
Third thing--
You mention a problem with the hard eight on the come out roll. You expressly state that the hard 8 was working when you rolled a six and they took down the hard eight.
I presume from your post that you pointed out the error to the stickperson and he replaced your hard eight.
I don't consider this a "conflict" as you call it. It was a mistake. Yes, it is a silly mistake that should not occur--especially twice in the course of less than 30 minutes with two different sticks and especially when you are the only player at the table.
But if they corrected the mistake without argument and replaced your hard eight--then why get "pissed?"
I don't view that as an issue over which you should get so worked up.
To begin with, the casino is wrong in not paying you the full amount on your eight place bet.
"Pressure" does NOT only mean to double your existing bet--though it can mean that in some situations.
Only when there is an existing place bet that has just been won, and you say "press the eight"--then that does mean to double the place bet (with the other chips that were won going to the player).
However, in your situation, there was not a winning place bet that is in the process of being paid. You put out 6 green chips to be bet. In this instance, the phrase "press the eight" means to increase the existing place bet on the eight by the amount that you have put out in additional chips.
Your situation is even clearer since if you only intended to double the amount of your existing $120 place bet, you would have only put out 5 green chips and expected $5 in change. It make no sense that you would have given the dealers 6 green chips to increase your existing place bet by only $120.
It is not necessary in your situation to say "press my eight to $270" though that would have eliminated any confusion--and that is a good way to handle your "pressure bets" in the future.
Another reason it is not necessary to expressly state that you wanted all 6 green chips to be used to increase your bet is the fact that the $150 by which you are increasing your bet pays off properly ($175) as a place bet on the eight.
In my view it is only necessary in a situation like yours to expressly state how much you want to press your existing bet is if you want to bet something less than the amount of your chips that you are putting out and there is going to be some change.
You also state in your post that they were "booking your bet as your arm is swinging"--does that mean that they moved all 6 green chips to the place eight? Again, if so, it is even clearer the casino was in the wrong.
Which leads us to the second thing--
Why was your arm swinging as they were booking your bet? The table was empty and your were the only player.
Why did the stickperson pass you the dice while you were in the process of increasing the bet on the eight? And even if the stick passed you the dice quickly, why did you roll the dice before the bet was resolved? You had full control of the table. It could not be because you were getting a "late" bet out, since you are the shooter. Were you in a hurry?
In that respect, you contributed to the issue by shooting too quickly--but that does not excuse the casino and they should have recognized your place bet of $270.
Third thing--
You mention a problem with the hard eight on the come out roll. You expressly state that the hard 8 was working when you rolled a six and they took down the hard eight.
I presume from your post that you pointed out the error to the stickperson and he replaced your hard eight.
I don't consider this a "conflict" as you call it. It was a mistake. Yes, it is a silly mistake that should not occur--especially twice in the course of less than 30 minutes with two different sticks and especially when you are the only player at the table.
But if they corrected the mistake without argument and replaced your hard eight--then why get "pissed?"
I don't view that as an issue over which you should get so worked up.
April 18th, 2013 at 11:46:59 AM
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Thanks for the feedback, Jimbo. The first two hard eights I was laughing about that. I have had the exact same thing happen in other casinos too. It's some kind of dealer head-glitch where they take a hard 8 working the comeout down on an easy six. But you have to watch those buggers!
I do appreciate the independent feedback. I had never heard about press means only up to twice the original bet amount; and I expected someone else would agree with me that it's bullshit when the bet didn't just pay; I'm taking $150 in green off the rail and asking to press the 8!!! How complicated is it?!?! Jesus!!
That's my position...
I do appreciate the independent feedback. I had never heard about press means only up to twice the original bet amount; and I expected someone else would agree with me that it's bullshit when the bet didn't just pay; I'm taking $150 in green off the rail and asking to press the 8!!! How complicated is it?!?! Jesus!!
That's my position...
aahigh.com
April 18th, 2013 at 11:52:27 AM
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Quote: AhighI'm taking $150 in green off the rail and asking to press the 8!!! How complicated is it?!?! Jesus!!
That's my position...
I'm sorry, what???
My hourly wage is only the legal minimum, and I accept that; so therefore I can't figure out why you'd want to bet so much money???
Gambling calls to me...like this ~> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Nap37mNSmQ
April 18th, 2013 at 11:56:30 AM
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I don't even fault the dealer. All of the fault was in failure to resolve paying me the extra $35 I expected.
To refuse paying me this $35 is a suggestion that I was trying to scam them with what I did.
And that suggestion is completely bullshit. No way was I trying to scam anyone, so pay me for my goddamn $270 eight!
You can't just say "whoops we made a mistake so we can't pay you that last $35!!!"
I am going to be mad about this all day long!!!!
To refuse paying me this $35 is a suggestion that I was trying to scam them with what I did.
And that suggestion is completely bullshit. No way was I trying to scam anyone, so pay me for my goddamn $270 eight!
You can't just say "whoops we made a mistake so we can't pay you that last $35!!!"
I am going to be mad about this all day long!!!!
aahigh.com
April 18th, 2013 at 11:59:53 AM
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A couple of notes.
First, like others, I have to ask what the heck happened to the "surplus money" you put on the layout? The dealer should have questioned what to do with the surplus money if he wasn't adding it to the 8... unless you quickly threw the dice so the dealer didn't have a chance. But normally the dice aren't pushed to the shooter until bets are made. Was this a late bet?
It never hurts to be sure all bets are booked properly, especially when you just pressed a bet by $150. It's not like you threw a nickel out there.
In defense of the dealer, I am not sure there is a clear definition of what "press" means. Some dealers do say a "press" means a full matching bet. Some do not.
At Caesars a few months ago, at a $25 table, when a 8 hit (I had $30 on it) I said to the dealer "go up one unit." The dealer added $6 to the 8. I was shooting so I stopped. I looked around. I looked at the floors, I looked at the ceiling, I turned around and I looked at all of the tables. And then I said to the floorman at the table (no boxman at Caesars) "Is this still Caesars Palace? Since when does 'go up one unit' on a $25 table mean go up by $6 on the 8?" The floorman (a long time floorman there) laughed. The dealer who was new said "but $6 is one unit." And the dealer was right -- $6 was one unit technically but as everyone else at the table knew it wasn't what usually would happen.
When I make unusual changes to bets I use the phrase "make it look like ______" to be clear about what I want the bets to be.
But one other point I'd like to make. You seem to have a lot of disputes with dealers... maybe too many?
First, like others, I have to ask what the heck happened to the "surplus money" you put on the layout? The dealer should have questioned what to do with the surplus money if he wasn't adding it to the 8... unless you quickly threw the dice so the dealer didn't have a chance. But normally the dice aren't pushed to the shooter until bets are made. Was this a late bet?
It never hurts to be sure all bets are booked properly, especially when you just pressed a bet by $150. It's not like you threw a nickel out there.
In defense of the dealer, I am not sure there is a clear definition of what "press" means. Some dealers do say a "press" means a full matching bet. Some do not.
At Caesars a few months ago, at a $25 table, when a 8 hit (I had $30 on it) I said to the dealer "go up one unit." The dealer added $6 to the 8. I was shooting so I stopped. I looked around. I looked at the floors, I looked at the ceiling, I turned around and I looked at all of the tables. And then I said to the floorman at the table (no boxman at Caesars) "Is this still Caesars Palace? Since when does 'go up one unit' on a $25 table mean go up by $6 on the 8?" The floorman (a long time floorman there) laughed. The dealer who was new said "but $6 is one unit." And the dealer was right -- $6 was one unit technically but as everyone else at the table knew it wasn't what usually would happen.
When I make unusual changes to bets I use the phrase "make it look like ______" to be clear about what I want the bets to be.
But one other point I'd like to make. You seem to have a lot of disputes with dealers... maybe too many?
April 18th, 2013 at 12:03:46 PM
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Actually, I find this situation of Ahigh at the Silverton instructive for another purpose.
That is--
When there is a dispute at the craps table, what is the best way to resolve it?
I have seen many instances when the player rants and waves and cusses--sometimes in a accusatory tone and putting dealers on the defensive. I've seen players threaten to hold up play while surveillance reviews the tapes (one time over $5). I suppose if the nature of the player is to act this way in other situations in his life, then one should expect no better of him at the table--when real money is at issue.
I am not suggesting or saying that Ahigh acts this way generally, and not being at the Silverton when this occurred, I am not saying Ahigh acted outrageously this time. I don't know.
But from the tone of the posts and based on what Ahigh has stated, my educated guess is that if this had been handled more calmly and professionally--and patiently--then Ahigh would have been paid.
I mentioned before in other posts that I do not view my relationship with the casino as adversarial. I recognize mistakes happen. I watch my bets very closely and when I am shorted, I calmly point it out to the dealer without making a scene. The mistakes are corrected--always with an apology.
That is--
When there is a dispute at the craps table, what is the best way to resolve it?
I have seen many instances when the player rants and waves and cusses--sometimes in a accusatory tone and putting dealers on the defensive. I've seen players threaten to hold up play while surveillance reviews the tapes (one time over $5). I suppose if the nature of the player is to act this way in other situations in his life, then one should expect no better of him at the table--when real money is at issue.
I am not suggesting or saying that Ahigh acts this way generally, and not being at the Silverton when this occurred, I am not saying Ahigh acted outrageously this time. I don't know.
But from the tone of the posts and based on what Ahigh has stated, my educated guess is that if this had been handled more calmly and professionally--and patiently--then Ahigh would have been paid.
I mentioned before in other posts that I do not view my relationship with the casino as adversarial. I recognize mistakes happen. I watch my bets very closely and when I am shorted, I calmly point it out to the dealer without making a scene. The mistakes are corrected--always with an apology.
April 18th, 2013 at 12:15:37 PM
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Quote: AlanMendelsonnormally the dice aren't pushed to the shooter until bets are made. Was this a late bet?
To me, that's almost worse than the actual betting issue. Did they really push the dice to the shooter before the shooters own bets were all down? It sounds like Ahigh might have even been alone at the table, which would make this an even worse procedural error.
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
April 18th, 2013 at 12:40:54 PM
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It sucks to have to train the dealers/stickmen, but it's your money. It's not the only game in town. You have the option of taking your money somewhere else. If they don't care about keeping your business, you should probably consider going somewhere else where you would be more appreciated. However, if you choose to continue gambling there, you should do so with the expectation the nothing will change now or in the future. The choice is up to you.
That said, I would put up with a lot at a place where I can regularly win because that is what matters to me. Of secondary importance is whether I am having fun. If I am not having fun, I make it a policy to stop for a while. In a case where I am neither winning nor having fun, there is no reason to be there.
In your case, maybe its time to reconsider whether its worth the hassle for now. Perhaps you need to take a break and diversify your interests a bit, rather than taking out your frustrations on others, even if they might have it coming. Just my 2 cents.
Summary: Were they wrong? Yes. Did you overreact? Probably.
That said, I would put up with a lot at a place where I can regularly win because that is what matters to me. Of secondary importance is whether I am having fun. If I am not having fun, I make it a policy to stop for a while. In a case where I am neither winning nor having fun, there is no reason to be there.
In your case, maybe its time to reconsider whether its worth the hassle for now. Perhaps you need to take a break and diversify your interests a bit, rather than taking out your frustrations on others, even if they might have it coming. Just my 2 cents.
Summary: Were they wrong? Yes. Did you overreact? Probably.
April 18th, 2013 at 12:47:42 PM
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Is the Silverton one of your regular haunts, with a table very coducive to your style of play?
If so, return, but with a wary eye.
Otherwise, move on: the crew was asleep at the wheel on this one.
If so, return, but with a wary eye.
Otherwise, move on: the crew was asleep at the wheel on this one.
"What, me worry?"
April 18th, 2013 at 1:12:31 PM
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Quote: AhighI am going to be mad about this all day long!!!!
April 18th, 2013 at 1:26:35 PM
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I was absolutely the only player at the table. Not even a spectator. There was a dealer, a stickman, and a boxman. There was even a pit supervisor behind the box man when all of this occurred.
I had a $5 don't pass bet, a $10 hard eight bet, a $120 eight bet. THREE BETS IN TOTAL. That was it, before I placed the questionable bet onto the come asking to "press up the eight."
So three bets on the entire table. The box man was sitting down watching the entire thing.
The box man wasn't saying anything until all six chips were in the dealer's hand as she was attempting to follow my instructions.
The box man wanting to clarify the bet books the bet for a $240 eight as my arm is already moving to throw!
I said absolutely nothing except, "press up the eight" as I put a straight stack of $150 in green chips on the come. I waited for the dealer to pick up all six chips before throwing the dice. Nothing was said at ALL about ANY change until the eight was called, either. And I did not agree to a $240 eight. The only thing I did that could be perceived as agreeing to that was to throw the dice as the boxman is verbally booking the bet for $240.
And let me tell you something else, and I told this to them too. I am always nice and courteous, and I generally play there every single day. I am not even taking personal issues with these particular dealers. My problem is that as soon as this conflict arose, there should have been NO ARGUMENTS ABOUT THIS. I should have been paid for a $270 eight and an apology should have been made. Something like, "I only thought there was 5 green chips, that's my mistake, let me call the floor supervisor over give me a second." That would have been appropriate.
But as soon as the boxman said, and I quote, "no but you said PRESS and full pressure is $240." That was the moment that I LOST IT.
I am not going to just let this go. Hopefully everyone can appreciate this is not about $35. This is about the way that I was treated at the Silverton.
The casino that I consider to be my favorite casino. The casino that I tell everyone is the best place the play the game. The place I would prefer to meet someone to play the game because the dealers are generally very good at what they do.
What happened here is totally inexcusable in my opinion.
I'm not even picking on the individuals in this case. I don't know what it would be that would explain the behavior that was on display here. I don't even fault the individuals. But this type of thing should never ever happen.
I don't want the boxman to lose his job. I actually like the boxman.
But what the hell? Why in the WORLD would I be refused $35 here. Why couldn't he APOLOGIZE TO ME when I was clearly upset over this instead of trying to tell me "but you said press?"
It was insulting to me as well. I felt like I was being told that I didn't know what I was doing or something.
The whole scene was just wrong in so many ways.
I would have just lost it completely if I had stayed there.
I was so mad.
I had a $5 don't pass bet, a $10 hard eight bet, a $120 eight bet. THREE BETS IN TOTAL. That was it, before I placed the questionable bet onto the come asking to "press up the eight."
So three bets on the entire table. The box man was sitting down watching the entire thing.
The box man wasn't saying anything until all six chips were in the dealer's hand as she was attempting to follow my instructions.
The box man wanting to clarify the bet books the bet for a $240 eight as my arm is already moving to throw!
I said absolutely nothing except, "press up the eight" as I put a straight stack of $150 in green chips on the come. I waited for the dealer to pick up all six chips before throwing the dice. Nothing was said at ALL about ANY change until the eight was called, either. And I did not agree to a $240 eight. The only thing I did that could be perceived as agreeing to that was to throw the dice as the boxman is verbally booking the bet for $240.
And let me tell you something else, and I told this to them too. I am always nice and courteous, and I generally play there every single day. I am not even taking personal issues with these particular dealers. My problem is that as soon as this conflict arose, there should have been NO ARGUMENTS ABOUT THIS. I should have been paid for a $270 eight and an apology should have been made. Something like, "I only thought there was 5 green chips, that's my mistake, let me call the floor supervisor over give me a second." That would have been appropriate.
But as soon as the boxman said, and I quote, "no but you said PRESS and full pressure is $240." That was the moment that I LOST IT.
I am not going to just let this go. Hopefully everyone can appreciate this is not about $35. This is about the way that I was treated at the Silverton.
The casino that I consider to be my favorite casino. The casino that I tell everyone is the best place the play the game. The place I would prefer to meet someone to play the game because the dealers are generally very good at what they do.
What happened here is totally inexcusable in my opinion.
I'm not even picking on the individuals in this case. I don't know what it would be that would explain the behavior that was on display here. I don't even fault the individuals. But this type of thing should never ever happen.
I don't want the boxman to lose his job. I actually like the boxman.
But what the hell? Why in the WORLD would I be refused $35 here. Why couldn't he APOLOGIZE TO ME when I was clearly upset over this instead of trying to tell me "but you said press?"
It was insulting to me as well. I felt like I was being told that I didn't know what I was doing or something.
The whole scene was just wrong in so many ways.
I would have just lost it completely if I had stayed there.
I was so mad.
aahigh.com
April 18th, 2013 at 1:34:36 PM
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Again Ahigh I would take a step back and think about the other problems you have reported at other casinos where you have had "trouble."
There is no need to "lose it" and there is no need to be "so mad."
Perhaps you rub the dealers the wrong way?
Someone who is a "regular" and plays at the same casino "every day" should have a very good relationship with the staff. Sure the bet was booked wrong and there should have been an amicable resolution.
But when you "lost it" you probably closed the door on an amicable resolution.
There is no need to "lose it" and there is no need to be "so mad."
Perhaps you rub the dealers the wrong way?
Someone who is a "regular" and plays at the same casino "every day" should have a very good relationship with the staff. Sure the bet was booked wrong and there should have been an amicable resolution.
But when you "lost it" you probably closed the door on an amicable resolution.
April 18th, 2013 at 1:36:33 PM
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Quote: Ahigh
But this pissed me off so much, that I made a huge scene.. I was so pissed off about this I was afraid I might go to jail.
I've been going to Vegas since 1975. Here's some unasked
for advice: Don't do that. Don't have a few dollars on a game
in a town where you live, mean so much to you that you have
to go batshit just to be right. Its extremely unprofessional. Do
it enough and you've have the rep of 'that guy who goes crazy'
over the slightest thing and that always works against you in
the end. If thats your personality and you can't control it, you
have no business playing anyway..
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
April 18th, 2013 at 1:37:32 PM
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Maybe they knew that with your dice contol an 8 was almost a certainty, so to protect themselves they shorted you on the bet.
April 18th, 2013 at 1:50:33 PM
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>That was the moment that I LOST IT.
Heck... its the Silverton. A nice relaxed place ... no pressure or sweating at all.
What would have happened to you on a jammed up game on a Friday night in a really busy casino somewhere else?
You can't lose your cool at the Silverton and then maintain it elsewhere when you really need to.
All you had to do was keep your cool educate the crew with the "I put six greens out there" do you really think I meant four and a fraction?
Its obviously an inexperienced crew and at the Silverton at that time of day that is all the heck you are ever going to get. You ain't gonna get a better crew than that there. Learn to deal with it without losing your cool. I mean.. The Silverton? In the daytime?
Heck... its the Silverton. A nice relaxed place ... no pressure or sweating at all.
What would have happened to you on a jammed up game on a Friday night in a really busy casino somewhere else?
You can't lose your cool at the Silverton and then maintain it elsewhere when you really need to.
All you had to do was keep your cool educate the crew with the "I put six greens out there" do you really think I meant four and a fraction?
Its obviously an inexperienced crew and at the Silverton at that time of day that is all the heck you are ever going to get. You ain't gonna get a better crew than that there. Learn to deal with it without losing your cool. I mean.. The Silverton? In the daytime?
April 18th, 2013 at 1:51:16 PM
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There's usually more to it than meets the eye. First, they might not like you as much as you thought they did. I know you think you're a semi-celebrity when you go there, but there's a hundred like you every month. Second, remember the other day when you won $108 in a short time and tipped $2 at the end? I guarantee you they talked about it afterwards and said something like "He comes in here every day. We treat him like royalty. He had $108. Three $1 chips and he tips only two of them?".
If dealers/supervisors feel slighted you end up getting the short end of the stick sometimes. I promise you if you were a big tipper it would have ended differently. That's not the way it should be, but unfortunately, that's the way it is in the business.
ZCore13
If dealers/supervisors feel slighted you end up getting the short end of the stick sometimes. I promise you if you were a big tipper it would have ended differently. That's not the way it should be, but unfortunately, that's the way it is in the business.
ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
April 18th, 2013 at 1:56:24 PM
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edited
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
April 18th, 2013 at 1:56:48 PM
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It was a different crew yesterday with the $108. Not a single person the same as today.
Older Patrick was on box for the two hits on the four.
The thing about this was that it wasn't even about the money. I would have been perfectly fine to roll a seven and lose all those chips after it got booked as a $240 8 because I had no idea if I already had $90 or $120 out there when the bet got booked.
All of the conflict arose AFTER the call was made.
But for anyone confused, this is not about $35. Absolutely not. This is about the arguing. And very specifically, to me it hinges on the claim that when I said press, it wasn't possible to be $150 worth of pressure because full pressure would be $240 starting at $120.
I don't buy that shit!!! And that's the instant I got pissed off.
I'm no sucker!!!! And that goes for trying to take down my $5 hard eight while we're on the subject.
I'm PISSED!!!
Older Patrick was on box for the two hits on the four.
The thing about this was that it wasn't even about the money. I would have been perfectly fine to roll a seven and lose all those chips after it got booked as a $240 8 because I had no idea if I already had $90 or $120 out there when the bet got booked.
All of the conflict arose AFTER the call was made.
But for anyone confused, this is not about $35. Absolutely not. This is about the arguing. And very specifically, to me it hinges on the claim that when I said press, it wasn't possible to be $150 worth of pressure because full pressure would be $240 starting at $120.
I don't buy that shit!!! And that's the instant I got pissed off.
I'm no sucker!!!! And that goes for trying to take down my $5 hard eight while we're on the subject.
I'm PISSED!!!
aahigh.com
April 18th, 2013 at 1:59:26 PM
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Quote: Zcore13you won $108 in a short time and tipped $2 at the end? I guarantee you they talked about it afterwards
ZCore13
1000% agree. If you want to be the local hero at
the casinos, tip them well and often. They don't
care about your BS stories or how much you
love yourself, all they want is to be taken care of.
The old saying 'money talks and bullshit walks' is
an old saying because its absolutely true.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
April 18th, 2013 at 2:00:03 PM
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Quote: EvenBob1000% agree. If you want to be the local hero at
the casinos, tip them well and often. They don't
care about your BS stories or how much you
love yourself, all they want is to be taken care of.
The old saying 'money talks and bullshit walks' is
an old saying because its absolutely true.
a $2 tip for less than 20 throws is plenty!!
aahigh.com
April 18th, 2013 at 2:03:27 PM
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Quote: Ahigha $2 tip for less than 20 throws is plenty!!
Probably not to the guys making minimum wage standing at an empty table.
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
April 18th, 2013 at 2:05:05 PM
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Need a proper tip thread for dice! Of course, if you fancy yourself a dice AP, and listen to the bj AP crowd, the proper tip is 0$! (and bring your own water!)
When a rock is thrown into a pack of dogs, the one that yells the loudest is the one who got hit.
April 18th, 2013 at 2:05:29 PM
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Anyway, it was a totally different crew. And I tip those guys PLENTY!!!
And yeah, maybe that's the way I should go, stop tipping everyone and go back and start winning and not saying anything pleasant to anyone at all.
And yeah, maybe that's the way I should go, stop tipping everyone and go back and start winning and not saying anything pleasant to anyone at all.
aahigh.com
April 18th, 2013 at 2:11:15 PM
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Quote: Ahigha $2 tip for less than 20 throws is plenty!!
Hardly. You're tipping because you want them
to remember you and like you. You want favors,
you want them to be glad to see you coming.
Instead they'll be thinking 'here comes the
cheapskate that goes ballistic over nothing'. I'm
not exaggerating.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
April 18th, 2013 at 2:15:19 PM
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Quote: EvenBobHardly. You're tipping because you want them
to remember you and like you. You want favors,
you want them to be glad to see you coming.
Instead they'll be thinking 'here comes the
cheapskate that goes ballistic over nothing'. I'm
not exaggerating.
I don't think you get it at all. But thanks for sharing your opinion.
I think the best thing is just not to go back there for a while.
But I got the message that they don't care about me as a customer.
That was the message that I got loud and clear.
I already know you don't care about me. I get that same message from you too, buddy.
aahigh.com
April 18th, 2013 at 2:17:47 PM
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Quote: hook3670Maybe they knew that with your dice contol an 8 was almost a certainty, so to protect themselves they shorted you on the bet.
Ahigh is not allowed to place the 4 or 10 at most casinos as he routinely bangs those #'s out.......the flying V is his weapon of choice.
Each day is better than the next
April 18th, 2013 at 2:18:29 PM
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Quote: AhighThe casino that I consider to be my favorite casino. The casino that I tell everyone is the best place the play the game.
This is what I find intriguing. This is a regular and favorite casino for Ahigh and apparently where he is known by the dealers.Quote: AlanMendelsonSomeone who is a "regular" and plays at the same casino "every day" should have a very good relationship with the staff.
In my experience, that sort of good relationship goes a long way in resolving questions amicably.
Why not in this instance?
I don't know the Silverton. And I don't know when Ahigh was playing. But depending on the casino and the time of the day, it is possible that the quality of the crew was inferior. In that case, it is even more imperative to have taken the "high road" and have explained calmly that you put out 6 green chips and there should not be a question as to what you meant by your bet.
Just two weekends ago, I was at one of my regular casinos where I am known. My son-in-law was with me and we were not playing, but walking through the casino when the table games manager stopped me to say hello. I introduced him to my son-in-law and we talked for a while and the the subject of mistakes at the table came up. The casino manager paid me a nice compliment. He said that he informs new boxpersons that they do not need to worry about my bets--that I watch my bets closely and if there is a mistake (either way) or an issue, then don't argue with me. They can trust me.
That sort of reputation is something I am proud of and it was obviously developed over a period of time involving many different occurrences with my bets at the tables.
I would think, Ahigh, that at least with your favorite and regular casino. you'd want to develop a good relationship that will pay you dividends in the future.
Or, as has been suggested, you should re-think where you want to play.
I can tell you are upset, Ahigh. But as I pointed out in my first response and which has also been mentioned by a couple of others, you had the table to yourself and you threw the dice before your bet was fully established. That does not excuse the casino. In my view, you still should have been paid. But you carry a little of the blame yourself by shooting too quickly.
But here is a $35 lesson: In the future, when you intend to increase your bet, say "press my bet to $______" and then there is no confusion. (I know that is an expensive lesson and likely of little solace.)
April 18th, 2013 at 2:20:02 PM
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Quote: treetopbuddyAhigh is not allowed to place the 4 or 10 at most casinos as he routinely bangs those #'s out.......the flying V is his weapon of choice.
WTF? Why would I ever place the four or ten. I never do that. It's either a buy or I don't do it.
Nobody has ever refused me any bet. The whole idea of anybody being scared of my shot is total bull crap.
I advertise to everybody that I only play for fun and I am not needing a semi-truck to pack up my cash when I leave the table or anything.
It's all just about being treated right that I'm having an issue over.
This is not a money thing.
This is not an advantage shooter thing.
It's just basic customer service.
aahigh.com
April 18th, 2013 at 2:20:26 PM
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Quote: Ahigh
I think the best thing is just not to go back there for a while.
.
I'm talking in general. You obviously care what the pits
think of you, TIP THEM! Tip them big, they will love the
crap out of you. They aren't there because they have
nothing else to do, its their job. Tip them and they'll be
your best friends. I'm totally serious.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
April 18th, 2013 at 2:36:26 PM
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Quote: EvenBobI'm talking in general. You obviously care what the pits
think of you, TIP THEM! Tip them big, they will love the
crap out of you. They aren't there because they have
nothing else to do, its their job. Tip them and they'll be
your best friends. I'm totally serious.
Generally speaking, I tip more than anyone else at the table. I already do.
I don't tip huge, but frequently I am the only one tipping. Especially at the locals joints like the Silverton.
aahigh.com
April 18th, 2013 at 2:39:36 PM
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Quote: AhighGenerally speaking, I tip more than anyone else at the table. .
$2? That's not a tip for winning over $100, its an insult.
Add this to your admitted bombastic personality and
they'll remember you alright, but not in the way you want.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
April 18th, 2013 at 2:48:43 PM
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Quote: EvenBob$2? That's not a tip for winning over $100, its an insult.
Add this to your admitted bombastic personality and
they'll remember you alright, but not in the way you want.
*sigh*. We will have to agree to disagree.
The solution to this problem is absolutely not just to tip more.
The last time something like this happened I tipped instead of getting angry.
I think _that_ was a huge mistake as it didn't help. One of the dealers that got tipped that time was the dealer who was taking my pressure in fact.
But the boxman was a different person this time.
I don't even blame the dealer though. The boxman should have taken up the slack for the dealer who is more prone to making mistakes.
I don't fault the dealer who was not all that experienced. I fault the conflict resolution in this instance.
And the conflict resolution was being done by someone who doesn't even get a share of the tips.
The fact that I am arguing with you about this issue is a further example of my problem though.
I should not have lost my temper, just like I shouldn't even be talking to you about this at all.
Gambling at a casino which can deal to me without making so mistakes is the only answer that is going to work for the long term.
It may just be time to move on from the Silverton to another casino.
aahigh.com
April 18th, 2013 at 2:56:38 PM
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ITS JUST A GAME! You are taking it and yourself WAY to seriously at this point. To be this upset over such a thing is trouble. You really need to back off a few steps from this before you hurt yourself or find yourself in a seriously bad situation (jail?, psychiatric hold?) after overreacting to such a situation. If nothing else it cannot be good for your own health. It's been how many hours now and you are still this upset? You're acting like someone is/was defaming your character over a stupid misunderstanding in a GAME. And even if they were "taking a shot" by implying that you are a chump, they probably did it for the "show" you gave them by flipping out. You're acting like Sheldon Cooper on Big Bang Theory. (It's considered a comedy for a reason, if you are unfamiliar with it.) Just calm down. You really don't have anything to prove to anyone but yourself. Just calm down and take a deep breath (or several). It'll be a new and better day tomorrow.
April 18th, 2013 at 2:59:59 PM
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Quote: AhighBut I got the message that they don't care about me as a customer.
That was the message that I got loud and clear.
Probably 90% of the dealers don't give a flip about the players. It is just a J-O-B. I hear the dealers complain and mumble to each other about players as they walk away from the table all the time, whether they tip big or not. I have had the displeasure of eating in the casino employee dining room too often and heard too many stories.
April 18th, 2013 at 3:02:11 PM
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Quote: skrbornevryminITS JUST A GAME! You are taking it and yourself WAY to seriously at this point. To be this upset over such a thing is trouble. You really need to back off a few steps from this before you hurt yourself or find yourself in a seriously bad situation (jail?, psychiatric hold?) after overreacting to such a situation. If nothing else it cannot be good for your own health. It's been how many hours now and you are still this upset? You're acting like someone is/was defaming your character over a stupid misunderstanding in a GAME. And even if they were "taking a shot" by implying that you are a chump, they probably did it for the "show" you gave them by flipping out. You're acting like Sheldon Cooper on Big Bang Theory. (It's considered a comedy for a reason, if you are unfamiliar with it.) Just calm down. You really don't have anything to prove to anyone but yourself. Just calm down and take a deep breath (or several). It'll be a new and better day tomorrow.
No you're right, and I absolutely accepted even at that instance that I was not going to get anywhere getting angry.
That is why I hauled my ass out of there before I went to jail over something so stupid.
The bottom line from my perspective is that they should not have been arguing with me over this issue. They should have paid me and apologized.
But no worries. I told them at the time as much, and I will just steer clear of the entire place for a while.
aahigh.com
April 18th, 2013 at 3:12:30 PM
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Quote: Ahigh
That is why I hauled my ass out of there before I went to jail over something so stupid.
While the rest of us weren't there, the way you described it you didn't give them a chance to recognize the error and apologize.
There is a "negotiating tactic" that could come in handy next time. Wait a couple of seconds before you say something and hopefully they (the other side) will say something first that will be to your benefit.
It appears you gave them no chance to say something to your benefit.
I don't want to rub salt into the wound here, but how many casinos have you had a dispute playing craps -- any kind of dispute?
April 18th, 2013 at 3:15:32 PM
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First, I have to say "shame on you" for making a hard way bet. That is a sucker bet. Period. Even assuming you can influence the dice, your advantage would be greater on the lower house edge bets, not to mention the reduced volatility. If you must bet the hard ways, save it for Australia or the UK, where they pay 7.5 and 9.5.
Second, I'm confused what happened to the other $30. I'm assuming it was a last-second bet and they didn't have time to give it to you before the 6-2?
Third, while the dealer certainly has some fault here, I think you overreacted. I'm sure if a seven were thrown you would have been given the $30. I don't know craps terminology well enough to say if "press" means to double a bet exactly. Personally, I would asked for a friendly clarification of what the word "press" means and leave it at that.
Second, I'm confused what happened to the other $30. I'm assuming it was a last-second bet and they didn't have time to give it to you before the 6-2?
Third, while the dealer certainly has some fault here, I think you overreacted. I'm sure if a seven were thrown you would have been given the $30. I don't know craps terminology well enough to say if "press" means to double a bet exactly. Personally, I would asked for a friendly clarification of what the word "press" means and leave it at that.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
