Anyone else enjoy "crapless" craps?
November 13th, 2012 at 3:22:49 AM
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They offer No craps Craps at some of the casinos in Shreveport, and it has become my favorite version of the game.
I don't know if it is because the pit is a little longer because there are ten potential numbers that can become a point, but my sessions as a shooter have gone much better on the 'crapless' pits than on the normal pits.
I also like the higher payouts on the place bets of 2, 3, 11, and 12. I have added the 2 and 12 to my normal Iron Cross strategy, so I have an additional payout when they hit.
The other big change from a regular pit is that instead of playing pass/come/come, because there are ten numbers, it is pass/come/come/come/come. It ends up being more expensive overall for a session, but the payouts are more lucrative, too, when it gets hot.
Last Friday, at a $5 minimum pit at El Dorado, a shooter held the dice through two shift changes (over 40 minutes). The pit ran out of red chips, and had to bring in some more racks. I've never been at a pit where someone was so hot, he cleared out the banker chip racks. He hit 6 points. He just kept throwing a ton of numbers. When he sevened out, he had converted his $200 buy-in to a little over $2400. From the way the dealers talked to him, I think he was a regular at that casino, and plays every day. When he sevened out, I had six comes bets with double odds, the pass line, the Iron Cross, the 2 and 12 placed, and a bet on the come line. Just one of those sessions that makes you love playing the game.
The one odd thng that I see with the NC Craps pits is that there are a lot more people who place all the numbers and hope for the big roll. I don't see that as much at the regular craps pits.
I don't know if it is because the pit is a little longer because there are ten potential numbers that can become a point, but my sessions as a shooter have gone much better on the 'crapless' pits than on the normal pits.
I also like the higher payouts on the place bets of 2, 3, 11, and 12. I have added the 2 and 12 to my normal Iron Cross strategy, so I have an additional payout when they hit.
The other big change from a regular pit is that instead of playing pass/come/come, because there are ten numbers, it is pass/come/come/come/come. It ends up being more expensive overall for a session, but the payouts are more lucrative, too, when it gets hot.
Last Friday, at a $5 minimum pit at El Dorado, a shooter held the dice through two shift changes (over 40 minutes). The pit ran out of red chips, and had to bring in some more racks. I've never been at a pit where someone was so hot, he cleared out the banker chip racks. He hit 6 points. He just kept throwing a ton of numbers. When he sevened out, he had converted his $200 buy-in to a little over $2400. From the way the dealers talked to him, I think he was a regular at that casino, and plays every day. When he sevened out, I had six comes bets with double odds, the pass line, the Iron Cross, the 2 and 12 placed, and a bet on the come line. Just one of those sessions that makes you love playing the game.
The one odd thng that I see with the NC Craps pits is that there are a lot more people who place all the numbers and hope for the big roll. I don't see that as much at the regular craps pits.
November 13th, 2012 at 3:52:11 AM
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I dunno. It takes a game with a low house edge and gives it a huge one. Read the Wizard's summary for the gory details.
If you enjoy it, great, but you are burning through money a lot faster. I hope you enjoy it 3 or 4 times as much, because that's how much more it costs to play...
If you enjoy it, great, but you are burning through money a lot faster. I hope you enjoy it 3 or 4 times as much, because that's how much more it costs to play...
November 13th, 2012 at 3:57:49 AM
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To make a come bet at crapless shows a real ignorance of the game. To make a pass line bet when it is not your turn to shoot ditto. Buy the numbers and do not pay vig upfront.
When a rock is thrown into a pack of dogs, the one that yells the loudest is the one who got hit.
November 13th, 2012 at 4:37:03 AM
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If I recall correctly, The El Dorado charges the vig upfront(bad).
I stopped there in the Spring on a trip to Florida.
I stopped there in the Spring on a trip to Florida.
I don't know everything but I know a lot.
November 13th, 2012 at 5:27:21 AM
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I was too drunk when I first tried it to know what was going on and I guess all these decades later I still have a sour taste in my mouth whenever I hear of crapless craps. Its a variation that, to no one's great surprise, favors the house, not the players. If you enjoy it... so be it.
November 13th, 2012 at 5:50:39 AM
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Despite knowing its a terrible game, the novelty factor will get me to try it on my next trip.
Are there any specific denominations you have to bet to place the 2/12 and 3/11?
Thanks
Are there any specific denominations you have to bet to place the 2/12 and 3/11?
Thanks
Expert Gold Price Prognosticator of WoV
November 13th, 2012 at 5:58:25 AM
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Quote: dtyst1Are there any specific denominations you have to bet to place the 2/12 and 3/11?
According to https://wizardofodds.com/games/craps/appendix/5/#craplesscraps the 2/12 pays 11 to 2 and the 3/11 pays 11 to 4.
So your answer is multiples of $2 and $4 respectively.
For what it's worth, the one time I played it, it screwed with my head so much, I swore I'd never play it again.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
November 13th, 2012 at 5:59:56 AM
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Go to Tunica.
Buy the 12 (2) for $35
Roll the 12
Pay $1 vig
Receive $210
or
Buy the 11 (3) for $35
Roll the 11
Pay $1 vig
Receive $105
Buy the 12 (2) for $35
Roll the 12
Pay $1 vig
Receive $210
or
Buy the 11 (3) for $35
Roll the 11
Pay $1 vig
Receive $105
When a rock is thrown into a pack of dogs, the one that yells the loudest is the one who got hit.
November 13th, 2012 at 7:34:06 AM
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The Plaza and the Las Vegas Club are the places to play crapless here in Vegas. They offer commission on the win. They do have a $500 max bet on the 2 and 12 and it's posted. The edge is 0.77% IIRC to buy the 2 and 12 for a quarter. Pay $1 vig to get $174 and down from a $25 bet with commission on the win.
The edge on the line bets sucks, absolutely. The smart strategy if you want to shoot is to only bet one bet on the passline and no more come bets. If you want the same flow, just place the numbers after they are called with no travelled bet for a cheaper deal, and always bet at least $25 on every number, and skip placing the 5 and 9.
IE: bet $30 place bet on the 6 and 8. Bet $25 "buy" bets on the 2, 3, 4, 10, 11, 12 .. and skip the 5 and 9.
There are 8 ways to roll the 5 or the 9, and there are 12 ways to roll the 2, 3, 4, 10, 11, 12 .. so you have 4 extra rolls total where you have to throw in what would normally be an odds bet (comparable to 5x odds or better). Take winning bets down or leave them up according to your preference when they hit.
This is how I recommend to play crapless if you are a max odds (or 5x or better odds) player on craps and used to that variance.
When you're not shooting, I recommend buying the 2 and 12 for $25 or more and if you want more numbers, next up are 3, 11 ,then 4, 10, then 6 and 8.
This is all dependent on:
* Commission is on the win for buy bets (2, 3, 4, 10, 11, 12)
* Bet at least $25 on each place bet (6 and 8 for $6 each is the only low-money way to keep your edge down on this game).
Do not place anything for under $20 at the Plaza or Las Vegas club as they are sucker bets until they get to the buy level. Or if you do, expect to lose more quickly than playing roulette.
Do not play crapless anywhere else in Vegas.
Good LUCK!
The edge on the line bets sucks, absolutely. The smart strategy if you want to shoot is to only bet one bet on the passline and no more come bets. If you want the same flow, just place the numbers after they are called with no travelled bet for a cheaper deal, and always bet at least $25 on every number, and skip placing the 5 and 9.
IE: bet $30 place bet on the 6 and 8. Bet $25 "buy" bets on the 2, 3, 4, 10, 11, 12 .. and skip the 5 and 9.
There are 8 ways to roll the 5 or the 9, and there are 12 ways to roll the 2, 3, 4, 10, 11, 12 .. so you have 4 extra rolls total where you have to throw in what would normally be an odds bet (comparable to 5x odds or better). Take winning bets down or leave them up according to your preference when they hit.
This is how I recommend to play crapless if you are a max odds (or 5x or better odds) player on craps and used to that variance.
When you're not shooting, I recommend buying the 2 and 12 for $25 or more and if you want more numbers, next up are 3, 11 ,then 4, 10, then 6 and 8.
This is all dependent on:
* Commission is on the win for buy bets (2, 3, 4, 10, 11, 12)
* Bet at least $25 on each place bet (6 and 8 for $6 each is the only low-money way to keep your edge down on this game).
Do not place anything for under $20 at the Plaza or Las Vegas club as they are sucker bets until they get to the buy level. Or if you do, expect to lose more quickly than playing roulette.
Do not play crapless anywhere else in Vegas.
Good LUCK!
aahigh.com
November 13th, 2012 at 8:24:09 AM
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I've always been shocked that Vegas doesn't let you buy the 5/9. $44 for a $30 bet. Highway robbery!
When a rock is thrown into a pack of dogs, the one that yells the loudest is the one who got hit.
November 13th, 2012 at 8:24:09 AM
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My favorite haunt, Beau Rivage in Biloxi, has one crapless craps table. I HATE the game. But on occasion, it is the only table open before 10:00 AM. I have tried playing on the table, but only betting like I do on a regular craps table (Buy 4,5,9,10, Place 6,8). But the flow of the game just isn't the same. And the boxes are smaller, so trying to jam chips into the box makes it hard to keep track of your bets. On a full table, payouts take forever to execute.
The last time I played on that table I said was my LAST time. I would rather pump money into a slot machine then try and play on a crapless table again. The one exception would be if the table was completely empty, and then I could play by myself, which would keep the game flowing more normally.
The last time I played on that table I said was my LAST time. I would rather pump money into a slot machine then try and play on a crapless table again. The one exception would be if the table was completely empty, and then I could play by myself, which would keep the game flowing more normally.
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back !
Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
November 13th, 2012 at 8:28:44 AM
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The thieves at The Beau (MGM) will have you pay vig upfront. To add to the insult 4 $25 buy bets would get charged $5 upfront. The 4, 5, 9, and 10 remain vig on a win. This thievery has been mimicked at the Grand down the street. Tunica remains THE place to play crapless.
When a rock is thrown into a pack of dogs, the one that yells the loudest is the one who got hit.
November 13th, 2012 at 10:02:26 AM
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Quote: DeMangoThe thieves at The Beau (MGM) will have you pay vig upfront. To add to the insult 4 $25 buy bets would get charged $5 upfront. The 4, 5, 9, and 10 remain vig on a win. This thievery has been mimicked at the Grand down the street. Tunica remains THE place to play crapless.
Ah, I never bothered messing with the 2,3,11, and 12, so I was not aware of the vig up front on the crapless table. That REALLY makes it a bad game then.
They are so generous with the vig on win for the Buy 4,5,9,10 it seems weird that they would go the other way. Since Tunica also had the same rules for the 4,5,9,10 I have always wondered if it was MS state law that required the vig on a win only?
That is another great thing about Vig on Win. The casino doesn't try and lump 2 or more bets to squeeze an extra $1 out of you.
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back !
Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
November 13th, 2012 at 10:10:35 AM
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If you don't want to buy the 2, 3, 11, 12 .. OR if the commission is not on the win, crapless is for suckers only or people who only want the 6/8.
aahigh.com
November 13th, 2012 at 6:17:01 PM
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Since it is a $5 table at El Dorado, minimum place bet on 2 or 12 is $6 and 3 or 11 is $8.
November 13th, 2012 at 6:27:01 PM
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Quote: RaleighCrapsThey are so generous with the vig on win for the Buy 4,5,9,10 it seems weird that they would go the other way.
The casinos wised up to the fact that when you push the house, as in the examples I gave above, the ev is so low, less than 1%, that even betting the 6/8 becomes a "high ev" event.
Not only do some people make come bets but some (gasp) make horn bets! You just want to take these idiots out and slap them, but hey, somebody has to pay the light bill!
When a rock is thrown into a pack of dogs, the one that yells the loudest is the one who got hit.
November 13th, 2012 at 6:45:26 PM
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Quote: DeMangoThe casinos wised up to the fact that when you push the house, as in the examples I gave above, the ev is so low, less than 1%, that even betting the 6/8 becomes a "high ev" event.
Not only do some people make come bets but some (gasp) make horn bets! You just want to take these idiots out and slap them, but hey, somebody has to pay the light bill!
Exactly! Just as BJ needs the ploppies to hit 17 and 18, and stay on 11, we need those horn bettors, C&E, any craps, etc. I just don't want them to be on the table at the same time as me. :-D NIMBY
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back !
Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
November 13th, 2012 at 7:22:10 PM
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I saw some people bet Any Craps on the NC pit. I just stared at them.
November 13th, 2012 at 9:21:36 PM
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Quote: SACRI saw some people bet Any Craps on the NC pit. I just stared at them.
$4 any craps is better than $1 aces, $1 boxcars, and $2 ace-deuce.
Ripley's BELIEVE IT .. or NOT.
Basically any $8 or higher horn is a sucker bet as you can get a better deal by starting off with the appropriate sized crap-check and adding in a yo and then adding in whatever more you want on the hi-lo after that (if anything).
The hi-lo is the money-maker bet for the house as most people don't understand edges.
Never once have I heard a dealer optimize a horn bet for a player. When confronted with the possibility of optimization, silence is the result.
The house is very specific about keeping the sucker betters suckers. The hi-lo is the house's golden-egg-laying goose.
aahigh.com
November 13th, 2012 at 10:29:58 PM
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Strat has had this game for awhile.
"What, me worry?"
November 14th, 2012 at 5:52:52 AM
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Quote: Ahigh$4 any craps is better than $1 aces, $1 boxcars, and $2 ace-deuce.
Ripley's BELIEVE IT .. or NOT.
Basically any $8 or higher horn is a sucker bet as you can get a better deal by starting off with the appropriate sized crap-check and adding in a yo and then adding in whatever more you want on the hi-lo after that (if anything).
The hi-lo is the money-maker bet for the house as most people don't understand edges.
Never once have I heard a dealer optimize a horn bet for a player. When confronted with the possibility of optimization, silence is the result.
The house is very specific about keeping the sucker betters suckers. The hi-lo is the house's golden-egg-laying goose.
So you can bet ANY CRAPS on a crapless craps table?
Wouldn't that be an automatic loser?
This is mostly a rhetorical question....... ;-)
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back !
Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
November 14th, 2012 at 6:44:43 AM
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The act of hopping any horn segment when it is for sale at below place 6/8 prices is beyond imagination.
When a rock is thrown into a pack of dogs, the one that yells the loudest is the one who got hit.
November 14th, 2012 at 7:23:47 PM
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How does the don't pass work on a crapless table? Thank you.
November 14th, 2012 at 9:35:51 PM
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There's none.
aahigh.com
November 15th, 2012 at 1:04:50 AM
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Quote: NokTangHow does the don't pass work on a crapless table? Thank you.
There isn't one.
I had a dealer tell me they had some people who would lay the 12, but when you're laying $600 to win $100, people question your sanity.
November 15th, 2012 at 10:59:05 AM
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Try come-odds bets on the crapsless. You do not lose the come base bets on a craps numbers as it travels to the number, and it pays true odds on the odds bets. If you get some repeaters on the extreme outside numbers, you can get up fast. The key with come betting is repeating box numbers, must have some decent repeating number hands.
November 15th, 2012 at 12:37:46 PM
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Quote: dwmTry come-odds bets on the crapsless. You do not lose the come base bets on a craps numbers as it travels to the number, and it pays true odds on the odds bets. If you get some repeaters on the extreme outside numbers, you can get up fast. The key with come betting is repeating box numbers, must have some decent repeating number hands.
If you want to make come bets, why would you go to the crapless table where the house edge is more than 3x that on the regular table?
The thing is, you usually DO lose on those craps rolls. It just takes a few extra rolls. You are turning those 2s and 12s from automatic losers into bets that lose 6 times out of 7. On your 3s, you lose 3 times out of 4.
And, of course, you are turning those 11s from winners into losers 75% of the time.
November 15th, 2012 at 1:05:15 PM
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Quote: AxiomOfChoiceAnd, of course, you are turning those 11s from winners into losers 75% of the time.
Yep, this is why there is a lot of crap still left in this game.
November 15th, 2012 at 1:44:09 PM
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Quote: AhighNever once have I heard a dealer optimize a horn bet for a player. When confronted with the possibility of optimization, silence is the result.
I had it happen once at Silver Legacy in Reno...I threw $2 for Hi-Low....then I through another $2 for an Ace-Deuce...then the dealer said "I'll put you on $4 any craps..it's a better deal."
Similarly, a Horn-High-3 is better off as a $4 crap + $1 yo
It's a more fun parlay too...$4 craps -> $32 craps -> $256 craps -> $2048 and DOWN
Three in a row craps and you'd made $2044 off of your $4...
Gambling calls to me...like this ~> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Nap37mNSmQ
November 15th, 2012 at 10:48:40 PM
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Biggest winner off that 50 minute role was a guy who bought the 2,3,4,9,10,11,12, placed 5, 6,8, and then had a come bet going on every roll. I don't know what he started his odds at, but halfway through the roll, he had the max odds, which was 100x odds, so $5 flat with $500 odds. He won at least $10,000 on that roll.
November 16th, 2012 at 4:39:41 AM
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So crapless craps may not be something to write off, its just something to do in a far different manner than ordinary craps.Quote: SACRHe won at least $10,000 on that roll.
November 16th, 2012 at 6:39:13 AM
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Quote: FleaStiffSo crapless craps may not be something to write off, its just something to do in a far different manner than ordinary craps.
You got it. You just have to wrap your head around the idea that the pass line and come bets are bad bets in this game.
When a rock is thrown into a pack of dogs, the one that yells the loudest is the one who got hit.
November 16th, 2012 at 2:17:35 PM
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I had a buddy that took DiceCoach's class, and he was betting the twelve straight up for $25 and winning at Rio (they pay 30 for 1!)
I told him, "dude that is a sucker bet! If you want to bet on the 12 for $25, don't do a single roll, let's go play crapless."
So I took him to the Plaza. And he won there too. Went from a couple hundred to a couple thousand.
You have to look at it $0.08 per roll for every $5 on the passline instead of $0.02 per roll. So it's a high-dollar game.
All the good bets are buy bets. Come bets are stupid IMHO. Just bet the 2, 3, 4, 6, 8, 10, 11, 12 and make sure you bet at least $20 each and make sure you have commission on the win. The end.
The cost to play is $0.08 per roll, so bet BIG and PRESS LIKE CRAZY and MAKE THEM SQUEAL!
Grinding on quarter bets (where they round down the commission at the Plaza), consider these edge per rolls:
Buying the 2/12 lasts 5.14 rolls before resolving ( 1 / ( 175 * 5.14 ) ) = 0.11% edge per roll
Buying the 3/11 lasts 4.5 rolls ( 1 / ( 100 * 4.5 ) ) = 0.22% edge per roll
Buying the 4/10 lasts 4 rolls ( 1 / ( 75 * 4 ) ) = 0.33% edge per roll
Combined edge per roll with $5 on the line (1.5% edge per roll on the line) and $150 in buy bets is:
( ( 150 * 0.22 ) + ( 5 * 1.5 ) ) / 155 = 33.07 / 155 = 0.21% edge per roll total
If you just do the hi/lo for a quarter each, that's ( 50 * .11 + 5 * 1.5 ) / 55 = 0.23% edge per roll. I think it's counter intuitive, but your total edge goes down slightly when you throw quarters on the 3/11 too.
The hi/lo costs 5.5 cents per roll (less than the pass line for a nickel). So the two quarters has a lower COST than the single nickel per roll. And that's the really great deal (hi/lo for a quarter each on the round down commission on the win).
IE: the penny-wise big-bank better is an observer.
I told him, "dude that is a sucker bet! If you want to bet on the 12 for $25, don't do a single roll, let's go play crapless."
So I took him to the Plaza. And he won there too. Went from a couple hundred to a couple thousand.
You have to look at it $0.08 per roll for every $5 on the passline instead of $0.02 per roll. So it's a high-dollar game.
All the good bets are buy bets. Come bets are stupid IMHO. Just bet the 2, 3, 4, 6, 8, 10, 11, 12 and make sure you bet at least $20 each and make sure you have commission on the win. The end.
The cost to play is $0.08 per roll, so bet BIG and PRESS LIKE CRAZY and MAKE THEM SQUEAL!
Grinding on quarter bets (where they round down the commission at the Plaza), consider these edge per rolls:
Buying the 2/12 lasts 5.14 rolls before resolving ( 1 / ( 175 * 5.14 ) ) = 0.11% edge per roll
Buying the 3/11 lasts 4.5 rolls ( 1 / ( 100 * 4.5 ) ) = 0.22% edge per roll
Buying the 4/10 lasts 4 rolls ( 1 / ( 75 * 4 ) ) = 0.33% edge per roll
Combined edge per roll with $5 on the line (1.5% edge per roll on the line) and $150 in buy bets is:
( ( 150 * 0.22 ) + ( 5 * 1.5 ) ) / 155 = 33.07 / 155 = 0.21% edge per roll total
If you just do the hi/lo for a quarter each, that's ( 50 * .11 + 5 * 1.5 ) / 55 = 0.23% edge per roll. I think it's counter intuitive, but your total edge goes down slightly when you throw quarters on the 3/11 too.
The hi/lo costs 5.5 cents per roll (less than the pass line for a nickel). So the two quarters has a lower COST than the single nickel per roll. And that's the really great deal (hi/lo for a quarter each on the round down commission on the win).
IE: the penny-wise big-bank better is an observer.
aahigh.com
November 17th, 2012 at 9:19:25 PM
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I'm a dice dealer who's never really witnessed a crapless table in action.
Whenever the shooter shoots a 2 or something, as stick we say "two craps, line in, don'ts win", etc
How do the stick calls change in this game? "Two craps" sounds ridiculous in a CRAPLESS game.
Whenever the shooter shoots a 2 or something, as stick we say "two craps, line in, don'ts win", etc
How do the stick calls change in this game? "Two craps" sounds ridiculous in a CRAPLESS game.
November 18th, 2012 at 2:04:58 AM
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Two craps, snake eyes, double the field
Then they announce payouts for the place bets.
Biggest adjustment honestly is not having 11 be a winner on pass/come bets. Once you get used to that, everything else is the same.
At El Dorado, dealers have to be able to deal both versions of the game, so the calls don't change.
Then they announce payouts for the place bets.
Biggest adjustment honestly is not having 11 be a winner on pass/come bets. Once you get used to that, everything else is the same.
At El Dorado, dealers have to be able to deal both versions of the game, so the calls don't change.
