California Games?

I have never heard about these before, so, please forgive my naivete.

I am going to visit San Jose on business for a couple of days, so, I was looking at the casinos in the area to kill an evening. And found this: 21st century blackjack.

I assume, this is a common thing in California (there was a title "California games" on that site somewhere), so, perhaps, somebody, familiar with it can enlighten me?

I am assuming, the strategy is to to bet the minimum until you get to be the "player-dealer", and then just hope for the best (and for the other players betting the max), right? Assuming not everyone bets the minimum when I am the dealer, I would have and edge of about 2.16% of the amount over the minimum with that strategy. Is this right, or am I missing something?
Does it happen often that players bet significantly more than the minimum in those games?
What is the usual ante (or whatever the proper term is for what you have to pay to the house for playing) amount?

And why in the world does it pay 6:5 for blackjack (and why H17, and no surrender)? I mean, as far as I understand, it does not make any difference to them whatsoever who wins, so why bastardize the game for no benefit?

I am not familiar with 21st Century BJ but, typically the player-dealer in these games is designated by the casino and you don't get to ever be the player-dealer.

I don't know all the details of the arrangement between the syndicates that typically "bank" these games in California non-tribal properties (commercial card rooms), but I am sure there is a fee being paid to bank the games.

If you want to get away from this type of arrangement (and 6:5 BJ), you should go to a tribal casino. Other than being forbidden to use dice and wheels (whcih make "California Card Craps" and California Card Roulette" quite amusing substitutes) you are able to play most card based games in a similar fashion to Vegas at the tribal properties in CA.

Quote: weaselman

And why in the world does it pay 6:5 for blackjack

Because 3:2 is so 20th century.

Quote: JB

Because 3:2 is so 20th century.

Wow. Funniest thing I read all day!

Quote: Paradigm

I am not familiar with 21st Century BJ but, typically the player-dealer in these games is designated by the casino and you don't get to ever be the player-dealer.

The website says that each player is offered to bank in turn.

Quote:

I don't know all the details of the arrangement between the syndicates that typically "bank" these games in California non-tribal properties (commercial card rooms), but I am sure there is a fee being paid to bank the games.

I am sure, there is :) There is a fee to play too. That is one of my questions - how large is it?

Quote:

If you want to get away from this type of arrangement (and 6:5 BJ), you should go to a tribal casino. Other than being forbidden to use dice and wheels (whcih make "California Card Craps" and California Card Roulette" quite amusing substitutes) you are able to play most card based games in a similar fashion to Vegas at the tribal properties in CA.

I hear it is at least a few hours drive from San Jose though ... I am not sure I will have enough time (or energy) for the trip.

I'll have to correct you there. By California Law "the player-dealer", or more accurately "the banker", is required to be offered to everyone at the table. The offer cycles around until someone says yes and then they bank for two hands. It is then offered to the next seated person and goes around the table in sequence. In practice it is fairly uncommon for people to bank the table since it can be potentially be very expensive. Depending how much money is being wagered on the entire table the banker must pay a $2 to $3 fee to the house every hand. For this reason the casino has a "Corporation" to act as a semi-permanent banker. The Corporation rents out first base from the casino at the table and also pays the $2 or $3 fee. The casino still has to offer all the other players a chance to be banker every two hands but as mentioned nobody usually takes it up.

If that isn't bizarre enough, if a player does elect to be the banker then they also have the option of forcing the "Corporation" to bet any amount up to something like $600 for each empty seat at the table. I was at the Hawaiian Gardens on Monday and this guy comes in, Mr. Money Bags, with about twenty $100 chips. He lays it down on one empty spot and opts to be the banker for two hands. He then points to about three empty seats and says "$100, $200, $100..." and the Corporation duly places the called for number of chips to cover the bets. After collecting the fees from everyone, the dealer then proceeds to deal to everyone including the Corporation hands. The Corporation consults his little chart and calls out to hit, double, stand, etc. for each hand he has betting. For every hand that loses, the bet goes to whoever is the "banker" of the moment, in this case Mr. Money Bags. For every hand that wins, the corresponding bet amount is removed from the "bankers" bet amount. If for some reason Mr. Money Bags did not bet a large enough stack to cover all the winning table bets then the Corporation covers the difference.

Get all that?

Anyways, Paradigms advice is still sound: stick to the Indian Casinos.

Quote: paisiello

If for some reason Mr. Money Bags did not bet a large enough stack to cover all the winning table bets then the Corporation covers the difference.

That casino site I was reading from says that if the bank does not have enough money to cover all bets, then the remaining hands get no action (there is no mention of Corporation anywhere). That's interesting too ... if the hand gets no action, will the player get the fee he paid to play back as well?

Yeah, I am not sure about that, I have seen it both ways so I am confused on that point. But given that players also like to bet the side bets which can have a large payout, it would be near impossible for average individuals to cover the total action at an average table.

You only pay the fee if you want the dealer to deal the cards. If there is no action then you can cancel the bet and get your fee back.

But, as the Wizard himself has stated, California rules are confusing and mysterious so who really knows what the hell is going on for sure.

I got a opinion in here.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/other-casinos/9685-opinion-on-california-bj-does-it-work/#post144170

I think it's only beatable when you find a bunch of noobs playing at the table. In this situation, it's a positive EV to play.
But it's not worth to spend time on playing this suck game. Avoid California 21th century blackjack, I hate it.

Quote: paisiello

. . .
Get all that?

Um...
Holy crap!

That is good info, Paisiello.....thank you for the corrections.

I have never seen a player take up the banker offer and assumed that the "corporation"/syndicate was given the right to always be the banker. The Corporation usually sits there at first base with two or three racks of cheques that normally appear to be enough to cover the action.

It is a really weird set up so I normally just play poker when visiting these card rooms.

3:2 is still available in some California cardrooms. Check the high limit room.

As for "corporate cover", I always assumed the player/banker could not call for bets on empty spots if they needed to use corporate cover to pay off the wagers. Otherwise, the player/banker could walk up to an empty table, post the minimum payout on a single spot and call for $600 of action on another. This has got to be a +EV play since the player would not be liable for losses beyond their staked amount.

I also assumed the house "banking fee" was bourne by all the players, including the banking/player posting a $1 for every betting spot. The fee is dropped before any cards are dealt. However, I am not certain about this.

I think the $1 collection fee is worse than 6:5.
I've been to a casino in Daly City. It was 3:2 payout, but still has $1 collection fee. California BJ has no fun.

Quote: Ayecarumba

3:2 is still available in some California cardrooms. Check the high limit room.

As for "corporate cover", I always assumed the player/banker could not call for bets on empty spots if they needed to use corporate cover to pay off the wagers. Otherwise, the player/banker could walk up to an empty table, post the minimum payout on a single spot and call for $600 of action on another. This has got to be a +EV play since the player would not be liable for losses beyond their staked amount.

I also assumed the house "banking fee" was bourne by all the players, including the banking/player posting a $1 for every betting spot. The fee is dropped before any cards are dealt. However, I am not certain about this.

You don't have this exaclty right. Someone can bank for as little or as much as he chooses, but cannot force the corporate player to play. What your Mr. Moneybags was doing was buying action, he actually paid the banker $5 for every $100 he wagered as a player.

The rules are very lousy because the house and the banker both have to make money, so the rules have to be so bad for the player that the banker can make $$$ even though he is coughing up $3 or $4 to the house every hand.

2 guys take care of one table, what a waste. The banker should be removed.

But that would be gambling, sir! Not allowed in California.

Quote: Paradigm

I have never seen a player take up the banker offer and assumed that the "corporation"/syndicate was given the right to always be the banker. The Corporation usually sits there at first base with two or three racks of cheques that normally appear to be enough to cover the action.

It's called "the Company", instead of "Corporation", here in CA.