Questions about being backed off.

Quote: lucky13

I had just pressed in to a strong count (but lost quite a bit)...

They had someone in surveillance count the deck from the tape and see how your betting varied (not your wins or losses). So yes, you may have just had a few losses despite a strong count in your favor, but they noted your betting action and basically told you that their blackjack games are for people who are less skillful than you are. I'd have just switched to craps or baccarat for awhile after bemusedly stating "you realize I've been losing", but its good you didn't make a big deal about it.
So far its just that particular casino though I'm sure they've noted something next to your player card number or soon will. I'd go elsewhere for awhile. Just not to have any further confrontations.
You have not been barred from anything but blackjack. So just drift away from their sight and their minds for awhile. Go to a totally different computer system which means a totally different casino ownership... and stay off their radar screens for awhile.

They don't want good players.

Quote: lucky13

1. Is this forever? Could I go back there in a few years and play again?

Yes. You can still go back and play blackjack, but if they remember you, they will probably trespass you from the property. If you wait at least six months, I think they will forgot about it, and you can safely play again. Feel free to play anything else immediately.

Quote: lucky13

2. Does this hold for other MGM properties? Do they share this info through my player's card? I didn't want to risk it, so I played at Wynn and the Palms after being backed off.

From a story I heard, I think the Mandalay will fax over a surveilance photo of you to the other MGM properties. I think the "back off" applies to the Mandalay only, but I think they may be expecting you at the other properties. I'd hold off on all of the others for at least three months.

Quote: lucky13

3. They never read me any trespass notice, so I'm assuming I can still go in to their properties. Correct? I still have a ton of points I'd like to use. I'm thinking that might be pushing it.

Feel free to go to any property, including the Mandalay, as long as you don't play blackjack. I'm quite sure your points are still good.

Quote: jeremykay

I'm curious... do you mind saying how much you were betting at the time? What spread were you using?

I'd like to know this as well. Also were you using any kind of cover or raising and lowering bets strictly with the count?

These S17 DD games are often watched intensely both by the pit and surveillance. You can get away with a lot less at these games than shoe games.

As FleaStiff said they likely replayed the tape and checked the counts manually and your corresponding bets.

Quote: Croupier

I was replying to AZDuffmans question in the post above mine, but forgot to stick the quote in. Ill rectify that.

He was asking about barring.

I saw the quote, I was implying he should wait before going back for BJ only. Though except for my player points I'd go elsewhere for everything I could. Casinos don't want part of my business I'll take it all elsewhere.

Just wanted to thank everyone who contributed to answering my questions. As for your questions:

I play KO strategy, spread $100-$1000, although I never got higher than $800 during this sitting (pre-backing off). The pit was quiet, and there were guys playing much higher stakes than I was. For instance, there was one guy spreading $2-5k and playing two hands at the table next to me. There was another guy at another table with about $50k in front of him, playing multiple hands at what seemed to be $500-$2000.

As for cover, I did what I've been doing for years. Complain and "chase" losses progressively into good decks, and make sure everyone knew I was "pressing" wins into good decks. At one point, I asked for another marker, and the dealer told me not to press when losing (tying to help me out), but it was in to a real good deck.

As for what I think my mistakes were:
1. Sitting too long in one pit. (The problem with playing where you are staying comped.)
2. Several times near the end of good shoes, I played multiple hands with good counts, trying to get more of the good cards to be played before the shuffle.
3. Wonged out twice in to real bad decks.
4. Took insurance twice.

As to what I subsequently found out, and responses to everyone's suggestions.
- My points are still on my card. I checked online.
- I plan to take a year or so off from MGM properties. Not a problem for me, as I'm a ~4x a year Vegas guy. My next trip isn't until May. That's when I plan to go shopping with points, and play some craps there.
- I didn't argue, but I did question as to why. I was never told I could flat bet, but I was told I could play craps and poker.

All in all, while it was a disheartening experience, I've calmed down and realized it doesn't necessarily make me a dinosaur.

Thanks again for the queries, the suggestions and feeling of community.

I'd find another casino to play at.

On a related note...here in Indiana there is a court case going on right now to decide if casinos in the state will be allow to ban card counters from playing. It was just argued in front of the Indiana Supreme court this week. A player back in 06 was kicked out of the Grand Vic for counting, and sued the casino. Interestingly, the Chief Justice as well as another justice hearing the oral arguments seemed to be backing the player, so it'll be interesting to see how that plays out:

Here is a summary.

I have two thoughts on this.

If the casinos win, they'll be able to continue to offer games that are more advantageous overall to the non counter, and a game that would be amenable to the non-greedy counter.

The courts will likely side with the counter. I would agree to this ruling but I think the game and/or procedures in all of Indiana will be changed so that counters will have less of a detrimental effect. This means less small deck games, shallower penetrations, and higher minimums, ruining the game for everyone.

I think the player should have just kept quiet and took his skill elsewhere.

Quote: boymimbo

I have two thoughts on this.

If the casinos win, they'll be able to continue to offer games that are more advantageous overall to the non counter, and a game that would be amenable to the non-greedy counter.

The courts will likely side with the counter. I would agree to this ruling but I think the game and/or procedures in all of Indiana will be changed so that counters will have less of a detrimental effect. This means less small deck games, shallower penetrations, and higher minimums, ruining the game for everyone.

I think the player should have just kept quiet and took his skill elsewhere.

That was my thought exactly. Since I'm not a counter, the player winning most likely will mean worst BJ games available to me. Being allowed in won't do this counter any good if all they offer is 2.0%+ HA games.