(Legit) Blackjack Counting Device?

Hi everyone,

I'm an engineer who's come up with a tiny computer and I'm looking for how it can be useful. I realized card counting is an option and I'm gauging interest in such a thing.

Basically, it's the radius of a penny and not very tall - the height of maybe five pennies and the top of it is a button. It can be used by:

1. Attaching it to a ring and having the ring turned around (so the unit is on the inside of your hand) and with one on each hand so your thumb can discreetly press it. One button/ring to count up, the other count down.

-or-

2. Putting the button computer into your shoes and using one for up one for down.

They'd be communicating with a mobile app that would keep count and vibrate twice when the count would reach a threshold the user selects and once when it drops below.

I'm wondering if there's interest for something like this in the Blackjack community before I write the software to support it. If there is I'm thinking of selling a pair for $499 as I've seen other crappier and less discreet solutions going for over $1,000.

Yes I know they're illegal to use in Nevada, but I'm also think it'd be impossible to catch - and Nevada isn't the only place to gamble.

Impossible to catch? But when you get caught it won't be good.

I'd suggest you personally use it. Come back when you've played a thousand hours. Put some skin in the game.

It's illegal in most, if not all, jurisdictions.

Even if used where it's legal, get caught with it and things will get ugly very quickly.

Also incredibly illegal in Canada too. I don't think openly advertising the sale of something like this is a good idea, but to each their own.

The least difficult part in counting is ......... well, counting. Who wouldn't be able to count +1 and -1 and need a computer to do it?

The difficult part is to memorize the chart and all the plays, avoiding heat etc.

To risk going to jail over such simple task as counting +-1 is ridiculous.

Quote: Dodsferd

Also incredibly illegal in Canada too. I don't think openly advertising the sale of something like this is a good idea, but to each their own.

I think he's already broken the law in Nevada:

Quote: NRS 465.075

Use or possession of device, software or hardware to obtain advantage at playing game prohibited.  It is unlawful for any person to use, possess with the intent to use or assist another person in using or possessing with the intent to use any computerized, electronic, electrical or mechanical device, or any software or hardware, or any combination thereof, which is designed, constructed, altered or programmed to obtain an advantage at playing any game in a licensed gaming establishment or any game that is offered by a licensee or affiliate, including, without limitation, a device that:
1.  Projects the outcome of the game;
2.  Keeps track of cards played or cards prepared for play in the game;
3.  Analyzes the probability of the occurrence of an event relating to the game; or
4.  Analyzes the strategy for playing or betting to be used in the game,

Quote: NRS 465.088

2.  A person who attempts, or two or more persons who conspire, to violate any provision of NRS 465.070 to 465.086, inclusive, each is guilty of a category B felony and shall be punished by imposing the penalty provided in subsection 1 for the completed crime, whether or not he or she personally played any gambling game or used any prohibited device.

Is offering a cheating device for sale on the Internet a conspiracy to use that device? Probably, and I'm not going to be party to felony conspiracy by having a public design discussion on how to cheat casinos using concealed computers. I'd advise everyone else to avoid the same.

To the OP, if you have a functional computer that small, there are far better applications for it than cheating casinos. If it really is the size of a stack of 5 pennies, and it's an easily manufactured design and has a decent set of capabilities, the potential for IoT, military, or surveillance applications are far more valuable than beating blackjack.

Quote: MathExtremist

I Quote: NRS 465.075

Use or possession of device, software or hardware to obtain advantage at playing game prohibited.  It is unlawful for any person to use, possess with the intent to use or assist another person in using or possessing with the intent to use any computerized, electronic, electrical or mechanical device, or any software or hardware, or any combination thereof, which is designed, constructed, altered or programmed to obtain an advantage at playing any game in a licensed gaming establishment or any game that is offered by a licensee or affiliate, including, without limitation, a device that:
1.  Projects the outcome of the game;
2.  Keeps track of cards played or cards prepared for play in the game;
3.  Analyzes the probability of the occurrence of an event relating to the game; or
4.  Analyzes the strategy for playing or betting to be used in the game,

so technically speaking, if I just move a chip from my left hand side to my right hand side when i see an ace come up, or making marks on those cards on the baccarat table, i still commit a felony?

Quote: andysif

so technically speaking, if I just move a chip from my left hand side to my right hand side when i see an ace come up, or making marks on those cards on the baccarat table, i still commit a felony?

Using chips to count?

Yeah, that would be illegal, but it would also be very difficult to prove. And probably not worth the effort to prosecute. Instead, if suspected of counting, a casino with simply flat-bet or 86 you.



Tracking Baccarat (or Roulette or Craps) history?

Nope. At least not until there is any evidence that these things can help change the odds. On the contrary, it helps feed into superstition, and increases bettor action. That's is why the casino gladly provides the pencil and paper to Baccarat bettors, and have history displays on Baccarat and Roulette tables.

Quote: andysif

so technically speaking, if I just move a chip from my left hand side to my right hand side when i see an ace come up, or making marks on those cards on the baccarat table, i still commit a felony?

Technically, moving chips around to count does not violate NRS 465.075, as the chips are not "designed, constructed, altered, or programmed" to do the counting. (Moving chips around does not "alter" them.)

As for baccarat, Nevada Gaming Regulation 5.150 says:

5.150 Devices prohibited under NRS 465.075; exceptions.
1. It shall not be a violation of NRS 465.075 for a person to:
(a) Make and refer to handwritten records of the cards played at baccarat;
(b) Make and refer to handwritten records of roulette results; or
(c) Refer to records of the cards played at faro, where the records are made by the licensee in the manner traditional to that game.

However, there's one part of the NRS MathExtremist left out that needs to be considered as well:

NRS 465.088  Penalties for violation of NRS 465.070 to 465.086, inclusive.
1.  A person who violates any provision of NRS 465.070 to 465.086, inclusive, is guilty of a category B felony and shall be punished:
(a) For the first offense, by imprisonment in the state prison for a minimum term of not less than 1 year and a maximum term of not more than 6 years, or by a fine of not more than $10,000, or by both fine and imprisonment.
(b) For a second or subsequent violation of any of these provisions, by imprisonment in the state prison for a minimum term of not less than 1 year and a maximum term of not more than 6 years, and may be further punished by a fine of not more than $10,000. The court shall not suspend a sentence of imprisonment imposed pursuant to this paragraph, or grant probation to the person convicted.
2.  A person who attempts, or two or more persons who conspire, to violate any provision of NRS 465.070 to 465.086, inclusive, each is guilty of a category B felony and shall be punished by imposing the penalty provided in subsection 1 for the completed crime, whether or not he or she personally played any gambling game or used any prohibited device.

I also don't think chips are a mechanical device in the way meant by the statute; I agree that using chips to track the count would not be prosecuted. I also don't think that making and using a handwritten record of the cards played at blackjack would be illegal under that statute, though you'd clearly get kicked out. I have a hard time thinking the State would prosecute pencil/paper use under the "device prohibition" law, though if anyone has case law to the contrary I'd be happy to read it.

Quote: MathExtremist

I also don't think chips are a mechanical device in the way meant by the statute; I agree that using chips to track the count would not be prosecuted. I also don't think that making and using a handwritten record of the cards played at blackjack would be illegal under that statute, though you'd clearly get kicked out. I have a hard time thinking the State would prosecute pencil/paper use under the "device prohibition" law, though if anyone has case law to the contrary I'd be happy to read it.

I move my chips round in circles, make funny looking stacks out of them. Drives em crazy, till they decide I'm crazy and harmless. Great cover ;-)

You should read about blackjack computers. There is a great article about them on one of the blackjack sites. The things that they do are very complex - imagine shuffle tracking with a concealed computer. Adding and subtracting is not only illegal, it's too simple. As a purely theoretical exercise, imagine improving on the code that comes before.

I'm not sure how much truth there is to it but I thought one of them well known card counting teams caught heat because they thought they were using the chips to help count the cards.

I have heard various rumors about people being arrested for using chips to count card's.

Quote: andysif

The least difficult part in counting is ......... well, counting. Who wouldn't be able to count +1 and -1 and need a computer to do it?

The difficult part is to memorize the chart and all the plays, avoiding heat etc.

To risk going to jail over such simple task as counting +-1 is ridiculous.

deleted wrong member

Quote: enabler

Hi everyone,

I'm an engineer who's come up with a tiny computer and I'm looking for how it can be useful. I realized card counting is an option and I'm gauging interest in such a thing.

Basically, it's the radius of a penny and not very tall - the height of maybe five pennies and the top of it is a button. It can be used by:

1. Attaching it to a ring and having the ring turned around (so the unit is on the inside of your hand) and with one on each hand so your thumb can discreetly press it. One button/ring to count up, the other count down.

-or-

2. Putting the button computer into your shoes and using one for up one for down.

They'd be communicating with a mobile app that would keep count and vibrate twice when the count would reach a threshold the user selects and once when it drops below.

I'm wondering if there's interest for something like this in the Blackjack community before I write the software to support it. If there is I'm thinking of selling a pair for $499 as I've seen other crappier and less discreet solutions going for over $1,000.

Yes I know they're illegal to use in Nevada, but I'm also think it'd be impossible to catch - and Nevada isn't the only place to gamble.

The casinos are trying to stop you from using your brain. For now they haven't been able to.
But they certainly have the right to stop you from artificially counting and keeping track of any gambling game physically outside your body. Ever see the movie Casino with DeNiro.

Also, you should familiarize yourself with RF and UV and other wireless communications as every single casino operating today has top of the line wireless surveillance detection including most if not all wireless microphone frequencies and UHV etc.

But it may be exciting to try. Please keep the forum updated.

Quote: TwoFeathersATL

I move my chips round in circles, make funny looking stacks out of them. Drives em crazy, till they decide I'm crazy and harmless. Great cover ;-)

I like to build forts with my chips. I start out with a big beautiful wall and slowly build up the wings.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Using chips to count?

Yeah, that would be illegal, but it would also be very difficult to prove. And probably not worth the effort to prosecute. Instead, if suspected of counting, a casino with simply flat-bet or 86 you.

Would they bar you? Maybe, is it illegal? No, but it would look odd for a guy at single deck blackjack to have 9 stacks of 4 whites (assuming he does the ten count in his head.)

I asked a gaming agent if writing down the cards played constituted cheating, he said that it might and they'd definately have rules against it to stop someone before they had to call gaming control. Ultimately, without deep penetration; you don't gain much memorizing the cards left in the deck over a simple count. You might memorize fives, aces etc. or note on the 6th hand of heads up single deck if certain cards have not been dealt. More often than not, it will just tell you to bet less. But, I am pretty sure keeping track of the cards dealt by moving chip stacks would get you told "quit it" but not a jail cell. I will ask AVVO.

Quote: AxelWolf

I'm not sure how much truth there is to it but I thought one of them well known card counting teams caught heat because they thought they were using the chips to help count the cards.

I have heard various rumors about people being arrested for using chips to count card's.

I really cannot imagine a working, functional bj team would need to use chips to aid in counting.
For christ sake, just use your fingers if you really have to. that surely beats moving chips around.

While everyone has pointed out this is a very bad idea from a legal standpoint, I'd also like to mention this is just a bad idea from a player perspective. Sure exact knowledge and exact play would returning a higher rate, but counting cards IS NOT HARD. It simply takes practice and then it's like breathing; you do it without even thinking about it. In the time/effort it takes anyone to engineer a device to count cards for them, they could have just learned the skill themselves 10 times over... and then would never also have the risk of getting 'caught' with a device and potentially going to jail or getting the crap beaten out of you in foreign countries.

Quote: andysif

I really cannot imagine a working, functional bj team would need to use chips to aid in counting.
For christ sake, just use your fingers if you really have to. that surely beats moving chips around.

The team wasn't using the chips for counting they were using to track something else, I can't remember what they were tracking, perhaps it was now some kind of signal or something. The casino claimed they were were using them to count and that perhaps gave them reason to backroom them.

The other time I heard about it, it was not a team, it was just a couple of guys using chips to count in some small casino with small limits. I think there was a case about it. Perhaps it was CO or something like that.