Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
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April 25th, 2016 at 9:44:21 PM permalink
Quote: Minty

Maybe this question has been asked in a poll before, and if so, I'm sorry. What do you all think, do you think eventually blackjack will simply be an amalgamation of terrible games that are only played by the uneducated and the desperate? My optimism says no, but my cynicism says yes.



One can argue that that's historically been blackjack, because in general, BJ has only gotten better. Look at Blackjack Switch, Freebet Blackjack, Superfun-21, the Super-4 progressive for Blackjack, and the like. Plus, double deck will always be here, I believe. I think a blackjack variant will emerge that has both game protection and a low house edge for the players with no CSM.

I mean, if we put a man on the moon, we can do this. Certainly that scenario would provide a wide-open golden opportunity for a good game designer.

However, if you judge blackjack games only by what AP maneuver you can get away with for some illicit cold hard cash, then yes, blackjack will be nothing but lousy offerings for those seeking to exploit "bad game protection games" to play. But that isn't really gambling, anyway.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Minty
Minty
Joined: Jan 23, 2015
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April 25th, 2016 at 9:51:31 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan



If you judge blackjack games only by what AP maneuver you can get away with for some illicit cold hard cash, then yes, blackjack will be nothing but lousy offerings for those seeking "bad game protection games" to play.



It seems like our ideas about what a "good" blackjack game is differ significantly... However, I should say that the wide variety of blackjack variants is appreciated! They come with their own opportunities.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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April 25th, 2016 at 9:54:13 PM permalink
Quote: Minty

It seems like our ideas about what a "good" blackjack game is differ significantly... However, I should say that the wide variety of blackjack variants is appreciated! They come with their own opportunities.



True. Some people search for a variety of gambling action, others seek new opportunities to exploit. To each his own.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Rio481
Rio481
Joined: Mar 11, 2016
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April 25th, 2016 at 10:12:28 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Yes, I do indeed, precisely because I was told by casino managers and executives that it alleviates card counting issues and losses in particular.
If the people who run casinos install 6:5 blackjack precisely to reduce/alleviate card counting issues, I have no reason not to believe them.



I have a reason not to believe them. Let me re-post my previous, not-so-hypothetical question.

So let's look at an example. With 6D H17 (common on the strip before CSMs were introduced) the house edge is something like .57%. It's not easy to overcome that advantage in a 6D game, but it can be done. Now the CSM is introduced as a countermeasure for a small population of skilled counters. Card counting is now completely ineffective. So what's the point of now introducing 6:5? There's no longer a threat to defeat. The answer is very simple and one that I've repeated - shareholder value.

I'm sorry, but the actions of the casino managers and executives bely their words. There's simply no reason to have 6:5 on a table along with CSMs as a deterrent to counting. I could maybe understand your argument (maybe) if this were an isolated occurrence, but it's not. I saw it at 4 of the 5 strip casinos I visited last week, and have seen it often on previous trips over the last couple years. I do not doubt what you say you're hearing from these folks, and I suspect many of them in fact believe it. But again, I think they're starting to believe their own BS.

Don't get me wrong, the casinos have every right to do what they do, and if people accept the change (which they appear to be doing in droves) so be it. There are legitimate reasons to look for increased revenue. Just don't try to tell me this is all about stopping those hoards of nefarious card counters. I'd actually have a little respect for a casino that says "You know what, we want to offer $5 - $10 BJ games, but simply can't justify it based on our costs. So we introduced 6:5 to make the numbers work and provide a game for our recreational gamblers." That, I believe, is closer to reality.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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April 25th, 2016 at 11:31:11 PM permalink
Quote: Rio481

There's simply no reason to have 6:5 on a table along with CSMs as a deterrent to counting.


I agree, it's utterly foolish and completely wasteful. On a CSM, you can offer 3:2 in safety, so there's no reason to deny players here, absolutely true. It's a daffy implementation but you wouldn't care unless it thwarts your intention to count down a table.

Keep in mind:
1. Putting 6:5 on a CSM table seems like they're forcing people to get acclimated to it. Perhaps this reveals how committed they are to 6:5. But it's ridiculous overkill. They may also be trying to justify equipment usage as per countless agreements with manufacturers, etc. This is a big part of the business.
2. A lot of gaming managers, like managers of other business, might not be too bright or efficient, or don't question orders from above. They're human, and a lot of decisions (including business decisions) aren't always logical or efficient or sensible. This won't be the first time or last we see the result of a daffy decision on the casino floor.
3. Shareholders don't make managerial decisions. They too look at numbers. And Tourist/Ploppy/Average Joe money covers a multitude of sins.

Quote: Rio481

I could maybe understand your argument (maybe) if this were an isolated occurrence, but it's not. I saw it at 4 of the 5 strip casinos I visited last week, and have seen it often on previous trips over the last couple years. I do not doubt what you say you're hearing from these folks, and I suspect many of them in fact believe it. But again, I think they're starting to believe their own BS.


I think it's more that they don't know always know how to implement new decisions and trends.

Quote: Rio481

Don't get me wrong, the casinos have every right to do what they do, and if people accept the change (which they appear to be doing in droves) so be it. There are legitimate reasons to look for increased revenue. Just don't try to tell me this is all about stopping those hoards of nefarious card counters.


It's more about increasing profits in general and stopping card counting in general, to make these factors non-issues in operations.

Quote: Rio481

I'd actually have a little respect for a casino that says "You know what, we want to offer $5 - $10 BJ games, but simply can't justify it based on our costs. So we introduced 6:5 to make the numbers work and provide a game for our recreational gamblers." That, I believe, is closer to reality.


Me, too, but they may take the attitude of "Here's our offerings, this is what we're doing, go play what you want, no further explanation as your action dictates what to do." And ploppies flock to the tables with less issues and more revenue.

Casinos make changes on the casino floor without any public input or referendum. They look at numbers for the previous month upstairs. Same with new game field trials, no notice, a new game just pops up on the floor. Play it if you want, here's a how-to-play card.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Paradigm
Paradigm
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April 27th, 2016 at 11:11:52 AM permalink
As a player, you can only vote with YOUR dollars. There are still Regular 3:2 BJ games to be had in Las Vegas. The D was spreading them at $10 the last time I was there. At the Monte Carlo there are none....I played Free Bet BJ when I was there. Sure the HE is just over 1%, but it is better than 6:5 BJ by a long shot (actually about 1/2 the HE, thank you Switch!). Spanish 21 is spread at some places in Vegas as well...you can learn that strategy and start playing Spanish. Both options are better than complaining about the change to 6:5.

I think this 6:5 situation is a huge marketing opportunity for Downtown. Imagine the marketing campaign they could run, "You want to play REAL Blackjack in Vegas? Come and play in re-vitalized Downtown Las Vegas where we always pay 3:2 on your Blackjacks!!" If they put in some compelling side bets with 4-6% house edges and get 10% of the betting volume coming through those wagers, they can still average .95% - 1.15% optimal play HE games.

I think the Strip Vegas BJ market is going to feel the pain as there are so many local/regional markets that gambler's will start to frequent more often to play BJ. Sure they will still go to Vegas, but they will go there for all the other attractions, play craps & PGP as alternatives. The speed of BJ along with the 6:5 game at a 2% HE will turn some players off BJ on the Strip...particularly when alternatives are available both in Downtown and back in the their local markets.

I lobby my group of ploppies when we are in town to not play 6:5. "Let's go Downtown and eat at one of those new foodie type restaurants for way cheaper than a nice meal on the Strip, we can play 3:2 BJ and at a minimums of less that $15-$25". It is a compelling proposition for the majority of the ploppy masses.

One thing mentioned at the TG Conference by a Director level individual at a large tribal property (local market) is his amazement at the number of 6:5 BJ tables when he walked through Strip properties. He was coming from a large locals perspective and felt very assuredly that this type of gouging of players would not work out in the long run, at least not as his property.

To me 6:5 BJ had a better chance of long term success back in the day when there weren't as many regional gambling markets as close to as many folks as there are today. I don't think this ends well for the number of regular blackjack tables without compelling side bets in Las Vegas...but then again from a game developer's perspective, maybe there is nothing wrong with that outcome.
Attempting to add value one post at a time
TwoFeathersATL
TwoFeathersATL
Joined: May 22, 2013
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April 27th, 2016 at 11:20:19 AM permalink
Eff 6:5.
And the game developer's side bets.
Nuttin' personal ;-)
Youuuuuu MIGHT be a 'rascal' if.......(nevermind ;-)...2F
Rio481
Rio481
Joined: Mar 11, 2016
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April 27th, 2016 at 2:46:17 PM permalink
Quote: Paradigm

I think the Strip Vegas BJ market is going to feel the pain as there are so many local/regional markets that gambler's will start to frequent more often to play BJ. Sure they will still go to Vegas, but they will go there for all the other attractions, play craps & PGP as alternatives.



Wish I could agree with you on this. The whole point of my original post was the strip casinos seem to have no problem getting action on their 6:5 tables. I think there's a sizeable portion of folks (perhaps the majority) who come to the strip primarily for the party/club/resort scene. When they play BJ they go to the nearest table regardless of conditions and play until their gambling budget is gone. Hopefully it will be primarily contained to the strip and SD games, though I have my doubts. Time will tell . . .
Paradigm
Paradigm
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April 27th, 2016 at 6:15:44 PM permalink
Agree Rio, but you aren't playing them, I won't play them and I am sure there are others...our play counts somewhere in the overall numbers and my play has been headed downtown and will continue there as long as I can find 3:2 BJ. And if it disappears in Vegas, I'll play craps & other options while in Vegas and just play BJ at my home casinos in So Cal. We got options, let's use them and see what happens.
Attempting to add value one post at a time
RenoGambler
RenoGambler
Joined: Apr 23, 2016
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April 27th, 2016 at 6:28:45 PM permalink
Quote:

Hopefully it will be primarily contained to the strip and SD games, though I have my doubts. Time will tell . . .



Rio, please tell me you're wrong about this. Unfortunately, I'm cynical enough to believe you're probably right. The 6:5 disease is also starting to spread to Reno, although it's still limited to a few downtown casinos. I try to tell anyone who will listen to stay away.
Variance giveth and variance taketh away.

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