Questions about Point-count strategy against shuffle machine

Hi everyone , i recently made my first trip to a casino located in Vancouver , I sat down , trying to play based on point-count strategy , But I noticed that , after several hands , the dealer will put the cards that have been used into what seemed like a shuffle machine , So my question is if the house puts back the used cards in to a shuffle machine after only a several hands , is the point-count strategy still useful ? if it is , should I make any changes to my running count everytime after the dealer puts the cards in the shuffle machine ?

Quote: Harvey1973

Hi everyone , i recently made my first trip to a casino located in Vancouver , I sat down , trying to play based on point-count strategy , But I noticed that , after several hands , the dealer will put the cards that have been used into what seemed like a shuffle machine , So my question is if the house puts back the used cards in to a shuffle machine after only a several hands , is the point-count strategy still useful ? if it is , should I make any changes to my running count everytime after the dealer puts the cards in the shuffle machine ?

In theory counting works for CSM, but practically the edge is so small when you have it, you'll need around 100k bankroll to make a couple bucks per hour.

So no don't try to count it, unless you have a huge bankroll and playing for comps. You need more advanced advantage play to beat CSM.

There are ways to beating CSM's, but keeping your RC after the dealer re-enters the cards is not one of them. When the dealer puts the cards back in the shuffler it ruins the "state" of the used cards... Basically, don't play against shufflers as you can't count them as you normally would. Just stick to shoe games.

Quote: Romes

There are ways to beating CSM's, but keeping your RC after the dealer re-enters the cards is not one of them. When the dealer puts the cards back in the shuffler it ruins the "state" of the used cards... Basically, don't play against shufflers as you can't count them as you normally would. Just stick to shoe games.

That is not exactly correct. Re-entering the cards doesn't ruin the count as there is like a 14 card buffer zone, so cards re-entered won't appear in the next round (maybe 2 rounds if playing heads up).

But I think your point is that playing against CSM is like playing against very, very poor penetration, maybe 1/2 deck to 3/4 cut off, so traditional counting is nearly useless.

As you say against a CSM only the cards in the discard tray and a proportion of those just put back into the machine can count. For instance using a simulation a 6-deck shoe with 83% penetration is 25 times more profitable than one where the shoe is shuffled if 16 cards have been dealt. This evening I was playing against a CSM and they tended to keep about a deck out - but then everyone was flat betting at a £2 table.

My advice is don't bother at a CSM as unless you can get a 1-33 ratio you can't even break even.

Quote: charliepatrick

As you say against a CSM only the cards in the discard tray and a proportion of those just put back into the machine can count. For instance using a simulation a 6-deck shoe with 83% penetration is 25 times more profitable than one where the shoe is shuffled if 16 cards have been dealt. This evening I was playing against a CSM and they tended to keep about a deck out - but then everyone was flat betting at a £2 table.

My advice is don't bother at a CSM as unless you can get a 1-33 ratio you can't even break even.

My partner and I play about 45 minutes against a CSM every week, but we have weekly coupons. :) One free bet and one matchplay each. It's the coupons that make the exercise +EV. The 45 minutes of play, hopefully slow play with crowded conditions eats into that EV but guarantees continuing weekly coupons. The place we play doesn't feed the cards until 40 cards or so, sometimes as much as a deck, so I still count. It is like playing a horrible penetration game, but occasionally, the count will reach +EV numbers, although likely only for a round plus maybe a second round including the buffer.

That's a cool approach. I like it.

Quote: kewlj

That is not exactly correct. Re-entering the cards doesn't ruin the count as there is like a 14 card buffer zone, so cards re-entered won't appear in the next round (maybe 2 rounds if playing heads up).

But I think your point is that playing against CSM is like playing against very, very poor penetration, maybe 1/2 deck to 3/4 cut off, so traditional counting is nearly useless.

I'm aware of the buffer. I guess I was just promoting "don't try it" to people whom aren't aware of the inner mechanics of CSM's.

Quote: Romes

I'm aware of the buffer. I guess I was just promoting "don't try it" to people whom aren't aware of the inner mechanics of CSM's.

Do you have any idea about such mechanics? I am eager to know as I always play with CSM.

If you ever look when it breaks down, you'll see there's a small number of cards ready to be dealt and behind that a wheel of pockets, where each pocket has a number of cards in it. Typically new cards are assigned to pockets and when the hopper runs out of cards a pocket is emptied. Thus any cards just loaded into the machine cannot be part of the current hopper or near the front of any pocket. Hence you can estimate the count effect on the next N cards.

Holy jhit Batman!
Now we're counting the CSMs....
Best of luck to you all!