BetVoyager.com Zero House Edge Blackjack... Is this right?

Here are the rules:

Six decks shuffled after every hand,
Dealer peeks for BJ,
Dealer stands on S17,
Double down on any 2 cards,
Double after split allowed,
Split 3 times for a total of 4 hands (including Aces),
Split Aces receive only 1 card each (and no double down),
Late surrender allowed,
Blackjack pays 3:2
AS-KS Blackjack pays 4:1

On the Wizard's calculator this comes up as .26197% HA (without the last rule). Can that one rule make all the rest of the difference?

These guys seem to offer an "Equal Odds" version of almost every game they have. Are they just expecting to make money from improper play and people overbetting their bankrolls, or is there some catch that I'm missing here?

Thanks, and again, wonderful site, keep up the great work!

Quote: DJGenius

Here are the rules:

Six decks shuffled after every hand,
Dealer peeks for BJ,
Dealer stands on S17,
Double down on any 2 cards,
Double after split allowed,
Split 3 times for a total of 4 hands (including Aces),
Split Aces receive only 1 card each (and no double down),
Late surrender allowed,
Blackjack pays 3:2
AS-KS Blackjack pays 4:1

On the Wizard's calculator this comes up as .26197% HA (without the last rule). Can that one rule make all the rest of the difference?

These guys seem to offer an "Equal Odds" version of almost every game they have. Are they just expecting to make money from improper play and people overbetting their bankrolls, or is there some catch that I'm missing here?

Thanks, and again, wonderful site, keep up the great work!

The 4:1 bonus is worth .1768%

Quote: miplet

The 4:1 bonus is worth .1768%

Thank you miplet...

Well, if that figure is correct than either:

A) They are lying about the game being "Equal Odds", or
B) I have made a mistake with the house edge for the standard game.

Something's not adding up right.

Here are the rules. Anyone else want to give it a crack?

Per the casino's write-up on equal odds games, they define equal odds as 100 percent payback games, with a margin of error of +/- 0.1 percent. So, the blackjack game you cited does qualify as it has a HA of less than 0.1 percent. There are numerous other games that carry the 'no house-edge' moniker, and some of them like roulette are obviously exactly 0 percent games. Others may have a very slight house advantage, or possibly a player advantage.

Betfair.com, a major competitor that also offers exchange-style sports betting, has been offering a similar 'zero-lounge' for years. However, they have less game choices available, and like betvoyager some do carry a very small edge. In their case, I always thought they offered it because sports betting was their bread and butter, and they used the zero-lounge in a promotional aspect to draw people to open accounts and hopefully make comissioned sports bets. Betvoyager, which allows exchange-style sports betting on the same account, seems to be matching their competitors offerings. Or maybe its the other way around and betvoyager was first, I don't know.

Both companies also know they can use the zero/low HA games to differentiate themselves in the online casino world, while still knowing that not every player will stick to a strategy of only playing these games, and perfectly. Some will make mistakes, some will play other games, some will place sports bets, and some will play poker. All of these are money-makers.

Assuming all is legit, kudos to both of them for offering excellent games. They stand to make (basically) no money on perfect play. They can't make a cent on roulette no matter how people play. Of course, they don't stand to lose anything either.

Thanks pocketaces for the info, I somehow missed that page.

I guess .085% is about as good as it gets without card counting. With a table minimum of 10c this also seems like a good place for people who are practicing basic strategy.

One way they can make money on no-zero roulette is from all those who will undoubtedly run there thinking they've found the perfect place to play martingale and end up ruined.

Quote: DJGenius

Thanks pocketaces for the info, I somehow missed that page.

I guess .085% is about as good as it gets without card counting. With a table minimum of 10c this also seems like a good place for people who are practicing basic strategy.

One way they can make money on no-zero roulette is from all those who will undoubtedly run there thinking they've found the perfect place to play martingale and end up ruined.

No problem, and i agree that 0.085 is quite good. As you can see there are numerous other blackjack 'equal-odds' variants, and I am quite sure that at least one of them is even better, perhaps hitting a true zero edge.

One caveat to your roulette comment. It technically would be the best place to martingale, if you were determined to. While it would not help you win, it would not hurt either. In a situation with no edge on either side, since we know there is no betting system that could add either a player or a house edge to the game, there is also no betting system that could be said to generate winnings or losses for either side.

As many bets are made, the winnings come closer to exactly zero. In this situation, the martingale is just as good as any other betting pattern: Over time, players could expect the wins (lots of small ones) to equal the losses (a few big ones). From the casinos perspective, you could expect your losses (lots of small ones) to equal the sum of the occasional big wins. While the player is martingaling, the casino is anti-martingaling.

The simple fact that each player has a bankroll in no way gives the casino an advantage in a zero-edge game. In fact, if just a few people martingaled, the casino would be very likely to lose money as those players are likely to walk away winners. Of course if one of them lost the winning side would likely swing in the casinos favor. The probabilites of each event happening multiplied by the win or loss in each event would equal exactly zero.

I completely agree with you, at least in theory. In actual practice however, (for myself at least) I would be very careful with the Martingale as it's so easy to get yourself into a situation where you can't afford the next bet in the sequence.

Again, I agree with everything you've said. It's not that I think having a bankroll puts us at a disadvantage exactly... it's just that I know many players have a tendency to overbet their bankrolls. I read one example about this phenomenon using the concept of two people betting $1 on a coin toss. If one player has $10 in his pocket and the other has $100, it's possible that they could go on betting forever, neither having the advantage. However it's also possible that the player with $10 will run out of money, at which point the other player will get to keep his $10. Of course, no one with a $10 total bankroll should be betting $1 on 50/50 odds should they?

I could be wrong though, and I'm sure you know more about this than I. Perhaps there's something I'm not understanding.

For the record, I must say that I'm new to all this, and as a new member of this forum I have already had many helpful responses from you and your fellow posters. I extend my sincere thanks to the Wizard for his excellent website, and also to all those like yourself who are willing to share freely the knowledge you have, so that we can all make more informed decisions at the tables. It is very appreciated.

From the site:

"The flip side of the coin is a 10% commission that is taken from a player’s net winnings during a withdrawal of funds from the portal."

Here's the link:

http://www.betvoyager.com/guide/house-edge/

Bummer.

Yes it is a bummer, but it's not as bad as it seems at first. After all they only charge the commission on your net winnings, meaning any amount you withdraw above your initial deposit. I guess that means being very careful not to withdraw anything unless you're sure you wont lose it back (and how sure can you be?).

Betvoyager doesn't take the 10% on net winnings if you play games which are not zero house edge. They have one blackjack variation with ~0.1% house edge (and so it essentially zero house edge) but it is not counted as a zero house edge game and is not subject to withdrawal fee.