armyegad
armyegad
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 14
Joined: Apr 1, 2017
April 1st, 2017 at 3:48:01 AM permalink
Just hit a natural seven card straight flush in Vegas on the PaiGow Poker Table. Bonus bet was $10 with a payout of 8000 to 1. Dealer, players, and I were under the impression I would be getting $80,000. The pit boss came over to the table and told me the table had a max payout of $50,000. The max payout was not displayed anywhere at the table and when questioned, the pit boss went to another table and pulled the sign from that table and brought it to our table after the fact. Is there anything that can be done about this or is it better to just take the $50,000 and run?

Last edited by: armyegad on Apr 1, 2017
onenickelmiracle
onenickelmiracle
  • Threads: 212
  • Posts: 8277
Joined: Jan 26, 2012
April 1st, 2017 at 4:00:44 AM permalink
April fools?
I am a robot.
armyegad
armyegad
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 14
Joined: Apr 1, 2017
April 1st, 2017 at 4:08:39 AM permalink
No April Fools, a serious question.
onenickelmiracle
onenickelmiracle
  • Threads: 212
  • Posts: 8277
Joined: Jan 26, 2012
Thanked by
armyegad
April 1st, 2017 at 4:32:42 AM permalink
If there is a slot dispute in Nevada of more than $500, it's supposed to be mandatory gaming is called in. You should talk to gaming and have them mediate your dispute. With slots, they must be involved if asked, so should work for tables too. I dont think accepting $50,000 stops you from disputing not getting $80,000. Act fast, time will be an enemy. I personally do not know whether you are entitled to your claim, but you have the moral high ground in my eyes.
I am a robot.
DRich
DRich
  • Threads: 86
  • Posts: 11596
Joined: Jul 6, 2012
Thanked by
armyegad
April 1st, 2017 at 6:36:21 AM permalink
Call Nevada Gaming Control Board Enforcement division. If the sign was not there you have a reasonable argument.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
Deucekies
Deucekies
  • Threads: 57
  • Posts: 1421
Joined: Jan 20, 2014
April 1st, 2017 at 6:06:55 PM permalink
Call NGC, and let us know how it turns out. I'd like to know how they rule. Either way, congrats on the win!

PS: You'll need to upload your picture to the internet via imgur or something similar in order for us to see it.
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland. And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with. - AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
  • Threads: 68
  • Posts: 11933
Joined: Jan 12, 2010
April 1st, 2017 at 6:09:50 PM permalink
Max aggregate payouts aren't always listed on the table. In fact, it's fairly common.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1491
  • Posts: 26435
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
April 1st, 2017 at 6:17:20 PM permalink
Add me to the list that says call the Gaming Control Board or insist the casino does. It is important you do this before as soon as possible. Even if you already left, I would still call. Surveillance footage will be able to see whether the max payout sign was on the table. I think the whole case hinges on that.

And please let us know which casino this was. They deserve to properly shamed, based on your account of what happened.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1491
  • Posts: 26435
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
April 1st, 2017 at 6:19:05 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Max aggregate payouts aren't always listed on the table. In fact, it's fairly common.



That's no excuse to not pay.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
  • Threads: 68
  • Posts: 11933
Joined: Jan 12, 2010
April 1st, 2017 at 6:22:48 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

That's no excuse to not pay.


Casinos always make excuses not to pay.

P.S. I'm not suggesting he shouldn't follow up on this though. I'm a huge advocate AGAINST aggregate payouts.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Zcore13
Zcore13
  • Threads: 41
  • Posts: 3808
Joined: Nov 30, 2009
April 1st, 2017 at 8:28:51 PM permalink
My guess would be that it won't matter if the sign was on the table at the time. What will matter is the rules that are filed and approved with the Gaming Commission. I doubt there is any regulation that says if a aggregate sign is not on the table at the time, the aggregate is no longer enforceable.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
DiscreteMaths2
DiscreteMaths2
  • Threads: 13
  • Posts: 241
Joined: May 4, 2016
Thanked by
armyegadLuckyPhow
April 1st, 2017 at 8:56:31 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

My guess would be that it won't matter if the sign was on the table at the time. What will matter is the rules that are filed and approved with the Gaming Commission. I doubt there is any regulation that says if a aggregate sign is not on the table at the time, the aggregate is no longer enforceable.


ZCore13



"5.190
Aggregate payout limits for gambling games.
1.
As used within this regulation, “aggregate payout limit” means a maximum payoff amount that will
be paid by a licensee to two or more patrons as the result of winning wagers resul
ting from any single call of the game or hand of play.
2.
Except as otherwise provided herein, a licensee may establish an aggregate payout limit on any
game as defined within NRS 463.0152, as well as on a separate bonus feature requiring a separate wager
made in conjunction with or in association with the game. Aggregate payout limits may not be combined
for different types of wagers.
3.
Each separate aggregate payout limit established for the game or bonus feature may not be an
amount which is less than the highest award with the minimum wager required to play the game or bonus
feature.
4.
All aggregate payout limits must be prominently displayed on the table layout or on a sign placed
on the table, which is unobstructed and clearly visible from all player positio
ns, using language approved by the chairman of the board or his designee.
5.
Aggregate payout limits may not be imposed upon payouts from slot machines, race books, sports
pools or any game where the highest payoff odds on a winning wager are less than 50 to
1, unless otherwise allowed by regulations of the commission. This section does not apply to bingo or keno.
6.
The chairman of the board may, in his sole and absolute discretion, waive one or more of the
provisions of this section, subject to such conditions
as the chairman may impose.
(Adopted: 1/01. Effective: 5/01/01.)"

Unless the casino managed to weasel an exemption out of this, they need to pay up.
Assume the worst, believe no one, and make your move only when you are certain that you are unbeatable or have, at worst, exceptionally good odds in your favor.
DRich
DRich
  • Threads: 86
  • Posts: 11596
Joined: Jul 6, 2012
April 1st, 2017 at 8:59:43 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

My guess would be that it won't matter if the sign was on the table at the time. What will matter is the rules that are filed and approved with the Gaming Commission. I doubt there is any regulation that says if a aggregate sign is not on the table at the time, the aggregate is no longer enforceable.


ZCore13



I think I could successfully argue to the NGCB and get the player paid. If the player can't see the sign they would have to be paid what is on the paytable.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
Zcore13
Zcore13
  • Threads: 41
  • Posts: 3808
Joined: Nov 30, 2009
April 1st, 2017 at 10:05:55 PM permalink
Quote: DiscreteMaths2

"5.190
Aggregate payout limits for gambling games.
1.
As used within this regulation, “aggregate payout limit” means a maximum payoff amount that will
be paid by a licensee to two or more patrons as the result of winning wagers resul
ting from any single call of the game or hand of play.
2.
Except as otherwise provided herein, a licensee may establish an aggregate payout limit on any
game as defined within NRS 463.0152, as well as on a separate bonus feature requiring a separate wager
made in conjunction with or in association with the game. Aggregate payout limits may not be combined
for different types of wagers.
3.
Each separate aggregate payout limit established for the game or bonus feature may not be an
amount which is less than the highest award with the minimum wager required to play the game or bonus
feature.
4.
All aggregate payout limits must be prominently displayed on the table layout or on a sign placed
on the table, which is unobstructed and clearly visible from all player positio
ns, using language approved by the chairman of the board or his designee.
5.
Aggregate payout limits may not be imposed upon payouts from slot machines, race books, sports
pools or any game where the highest payoff odds on a winning wager are less than 50 to
1, unless otherwise allowed by regulations of the commission. This section does not apply to bingo or keno.
6.
The chairman of the board may, in his sole and absolute discretion, waive one or more of the
provisions of this section, subject to such conditions
as the chairman may impose.
(Adopted: 1/01. Effective: 5/01/01.)"

Unless the casino managed to weasel an exemption out of this, they need to pay up.



It's obviously a rule. Just doesn't specify the penalty. If the penalty was paying the full amount won, you would think it would say it. Could just be a fine. You never know with these things.

ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
Zcore13
Zcore13
  • Threads: 41
  • Posts: 3808
Joined: Nov 30, 2009
Thanked by
onenickelmiracle
April 1st, 2017 at 10:09:04 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

I think I could successfully argue to the NGCB and get the player paid. If the player can't see the sign they would have to be paid what is on the paytable.



I would agree, but how much would it cost after the casino strings things out and then appeals (If available).

The first issue is that an aggregate should never be allowed to be less than the maximum one person could win. That should be rule 1vin gaming regulations on jackpots. I always made my aggregates at least the max single hand win.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
armyegad
armyegad
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 14
Joined: Apr 1, 2017
April 1st, 2017 at 10:13:06 PM permalink
Attempting to upload the picture,



Thank you for all the feedback, will contact the Board on Monday and let everyone know their response.
Last edited by: armyegad on Apr 1, 2017
GWAE
GWAE
  • Threads: 93
  • Posts: 9854
Joined: Sep 20, 2013
April 2nd, 2017 at 3:58:25 AM permalink
You are to new to post. I will fix



Wait it is imgur, I think those work differently.

Here is link

http://imgur.com/i9Zn7AA
Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed. I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW
MaxPen
MaxPen
  • Threads: 13
  • Posts: 3634
Joined: Feb 4, 2015
April 2nd, 2017 at 9:52:53 AM permalink
They will have to pay if sign was not displayed at table you were playing. Good luck. What a Dick move by the Flamingo. Hopefully, you got anyone else at the table to give you Contact info.

We're there any envy bonuses paid to others deducted from your 50k?
beachbumbabs
beachbumbabs
  • Threads: 100
  • Posts: 14260
Joined: May 21, 2013
April 2nd, 2017 at 10:27:01 AM permalink
Quote: MaxPen

They will have to pay if sign was not displayed at table you were playing. Good luck. What a Dick move by the Flamingo. Hopefully, you got anyone else at the table to give you Contact info.

We're there any envy bonuses paid to others deducted from your 50k?



My question also. CET supposedly does not charge envy against the aggregate, so they should not have (I've been told).
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
beachbumbabs
beachbumbabs
  • Threads: 100
  • Posts: 14260
Joined: May 21, 2013
April 2nd, 2017 at 10:33:53 AM permalink
What is truly bizarre, is that just a week ago Saturday, someone hit a paigow progressive for 200k+ not in Vegas, and it was


The EXACT same hand.

What are the odds?
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
  • Threads: 68
  • Posts: 11933
Joined: Jan 12, 2010
April 2nd, 2017 at 11:16:30 AM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

What is truly bizarre, is that just a week ago Saturday, someone hit a paigow progressive for 200k+ not in Vegas, and it was


The EXACT same hand.

What are the odds?


1 in 133,784,560
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
cestanl
cestanl
  • Threads: 14
  • Posts: 89
Joined: Aug 31, 2011
Thanked by
armyegad
April 2nd, 2017 at 5:24:30 PM permalink
Suuuuuuch a pretty hand.
armyegad
armyegad
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 14
Joined: Apr 1, 2017
April 2nd, 2017 at 7:40:22 PM permalink
Fortunately there were two players that did get the $5000 envy bonus and it was not taken from my winnings unless you count the $30,000 they refused to pay me :)
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
  • Threads: 164
  • Posts: 22272
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
April 2nd, 2017 at 8:05:41 PM permalink
Even if gaming sides with the casino, DO NOT just accept their decision(unless it's a good one). There is an appeal process, 3 Levels of appeals.

I would even think about talking to an attorney.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
  • Threads: 164
  • Posts: 22272
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
April 2nd, 2017 at 8:08:34 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

What is truly bizarre, is that just a week ago Saturday, someone hit a paigow progressive for 200k+ not in Vegas, and it was


The EXACT same hand.

What are the odds?

Link/pic's?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
RS
RS
  • Threads: 62
  • Posts: 8626
Joined: Feb 11, 2014
April 2nd, 2017 at 8:24:48 PM permalink
Good luck in getting the rest of that $30k you're owed. Without the sign being on the table and nothing else stating a maximum payout, you have a reasonable expectation to getting paid the $80,000. The boss bringing the sign from the other table to yours is weird. By the boss bringing the sign to your table, changing the payout from $80k to $50k, I think a reasonable argument could be made that the casino attempted to and succeeded in changing the outcome or payment of a hand, which is a clear violation of the gaming regulations, at least in Nevada.

Quote: beachbumbabs

What is truly bizarre, is that just a week ago Saturday, someone hit a paigow progressive for 200k+ not in Vegas, and it was


The EXACT same hand.

What are the odds?



Stupid question. Either it happens or it doesn't. It's clearly 50/50.

This is sarcasm.
TomG
TomG
  • Threads: 16
  • Posts: 2426
Joined: Sep 26, 2010
April 2nd, 2017 at 8:29:23 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

What is truly bizarre, is that just a week ago Saturday, someone hit a paigow progressive for 200k+ not in Vegas, and it was


The EXACT same hand.

What are the odds?



Given enough hands, the odds of seeing that hand at least two times approaches one. If two seven card straight flushes are hit, the chance that they are the same is 1 in 64 (maybe infinitesimally higher than that, given the chance that they could both be hit on the same hand)

-----

There is absolutely no reason for the casino not to pay other than flagrant ethical and legal violations. Keep us updated
mrsuit31
mrsuit31
  • Threads: 82
  • Posts: 1325
Joined: May 29, 2010
April 3rd, 2017 at 7:57:55 AM permalink
Quote: DiscreteMaths2

"5.190
Aggregate payout limits for gambling games.

....

6.
The chairman of the board may, in his sole and absolute discretion, waive one or more of the provisions of this section, subject to such conditions as the chairman may impose.
(Adopted: 1/01. Effective: 5/01/01.)"



Don't ignore this section... I assume this would likely be the decision point of any argument you make. If they typically have the aggregate payout sign on the table, which I'm assuming they do, and they simply didn't have it on the table while this hand was being played, I can see that as a big issue for any argument that you may choose to make. This can and I'm sure will be verified by surveillance from previous play.

That's one hell of a hand!
.
ams288
ams288
  • Threads: 22
  • Posts: 6483
Joined: Sep 26, 2012
April 3rd, 2017 at 8:02:45 AM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

My question also. CET supposedly does not charge envy against the aggregate, so they should not have (I've been told).



Does envy ever count against the aggregate?

At NYNY (where I play most often in Vegas), their table max payout is only $25,000. But on their placard they specifically state that the envy bonus does not go towards the $25,000 max.

If it did, there could be a scenario where the person in seat 7 gets the seven card SF and doesn't get paid because seats 2-6 all got $5,000 envy.
Ding Dong the Witch is Dead
michael99000
michael99000
  • Threads: 9
  • Posts: 2113
Joined: Jul 10, 2010
April 3rd, 2017 at 8:05:20 AM permalink
Quote: mrsuit31

Don't ignore this section... I assume this would likely be the decision point of any argument you make. If they typically have the aggregate payout sign on the table, which I'm assuming they do, and they simply didn't have it on the table while this hand was being played, I can see that as a big issue for any argument that you may choose to make. This can and I'm sure will be verified by surveillance from previous play.

That's one hell of a hand!



Why would they ever remove the sign? That table is always a pai gow table and that payout limit is a constant , then just leave the sign there. It's not like a table min/max bet sign that's always changing. And a casino should always have enough of those signs in stock that they don't need to move them around from table to table. If I sit down and don't see a sign and I place a bet whereby I'm not getting full odds if I win, then I'd feel cheated

Where I play in AC the max payouts are printed in the actual table felt with the other rules, at least in Let It Ride and Carribean stud
armyegad
armyegad
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 14
Joined: Apr 1, 2017
April 3rd, 2017 at 10:02:14 AM permalink
The Envy did not come out of the max payout, table paid $50,000 and $5,000 to each player separately.
armyegad
armyegad
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 14
Joined: Apr 1, 2017
April 3rd, 2017 at 10:07:42 AM permalink
The casino had signs on approximately one of ten tables. The next day I complained to the Manager that I was still upset about the $50,000 and the fact that the casino took no actions to place signs on the tables to prevent somebody else going through the same thing. My second complaint achieved the Manager personally digging out all of the signs from the drawers and placing them on the tables followed by a $300 voucher for a steak dinner with my father. At least they made an attempt to reinstate the signs for all to see. I later found out that I was the second one in recent years where the sign was missing and then produced upon payout....
armyegad
armyegad
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 14
Joined: Apr 1, 2017
April 3rd, 2017 at 10:09:10 AM permalink
Just got off the phone with the Nevada Gaming commission and filed my complaint. Will let you know as soon as I get a response in the mail as per their procedures.
ahiromu
ahiromu
  • Threads: 112
  • Posts: 2107
Joined: Jan 15, 2010
April 3rd, 2017 at 10:51:39 AM permalink
Quote: ams288

At NYNY (where I play most often in Vegas), their table max payout is only $25,000. But on their placard they specifically state that the envy bonus does not go towards the $25,000 max.



This is what I came to say. Some casinos have their max aggregate BELOW the $5 "minimum" for envy. So with the envy, they are forcing you into a situation where your payoff is less than the listed amount. Robbery.
Its - Possessive; It's - "It is" / "It has"; There - Location; Their - Possessive; They're - "They are"
Mission146
Mission146
  • Threads: 142
  • Posts: 16832
Joined: May 15, 2012
April 3rd, 2017 at 11:06:40 AM permalink
Quote: ahiromu

This is what I came to say. Some casinos have their max aggregate BELOW the $5 "minimum" for envy. So with the envy, they are forcing you into a situation where your payoff is less than the listed amount. Robbery.



Maximum Aggregate Payouts are robbery no matter how you look at it, in my opinion. It's a partial free roll for the casino and falsely increases the House Edge of a particular game or proposition as compared to the listed paytable. Granted, if it is something like a side bet, then sure, but on a base game!? Please. If the casino can't handle the maximum possible payout according to what the paytable says, then the casino should reduce the max bet that they are willing to take.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
ahiromu
ahiromu
  • Threads: 112
  • Posts: 2107
Joined: Jan 15, 2010
April 3rd, 2017 at 12:04:59 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

Maximum Aggregate Payouts are robbery no matter how you look at it, in my opinion. It's a partial free roll for the casino and falsely increases the House Edge of a particular game or proposition as compared to the listed paytable. Granted, if it is something like a side bet, then sure, but on a base game!? Please. If the casino can't handle the maximum possible payout according to what the paytable says, then the casino should reduce the max bet that they are willing to take.



I agree, but there's something particularly evil about the $25k max payout. As it is with those games where it comes into play for the main hand you are alluding to.

I completely understand the business desire for a max aggregate, especially for small outfits. I feel like they should have to spell out that if you bet more than $3/$6 for $25k/50k you will be underpaid on a "jackpot" hit.

I once watched a young woman (litigator in NYC, obviously intelligent) bet something like $100 main game and $200 Fortune. All I could think of is how much she was losing EV wise, because even the smaller wins would be subject to the max aggregate. The worst part was that she was winning.
Its - Possessive; It's - "It is" / "It has"; There - Location; Their - Possessive; They're - "They are"
charliepatrick
charliepatrick
  • Threads: 39
  • Posts: 2946
Joined: Jun 17, 2011
April 3rd, 2017 at 1:46:46 PM permalink
Quote: ahiromu

...max aggregate BELOW the $5 "minimum" for envy...

If I read it correctly their max aggregate cannot be less than the highest possible payout for a minimum bet.
beachbumbabs
beachbumbabs
  • Threads: 100
  • Posts: 14260
Joined: May 21, 2013
April 3rd, 2017 at 2:46:17 PM permalink
Quote: charliepatrick

If I read it correctly their max aggregate cannot be less than the highest possible payout for a minimum bet.



The minimum bet for the Fortune is usually $1, though you do not qualify for envy until $5. If they have a $5 minimum, then they would be in violation with a 25k aggregate, with that hand at 8000:1.

I agree with Mission, though; if they allow you to bet more, the aggregate should cover all hands within the min - max range for that bet.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
GWAE
GWAE
  • Threads: 93
  • Posts: 9854
Joined: Sep 20, 2013
April 3rd, 2017 at 3:17:19 PM permalink
Not sure why you would go to Gaming. They are going to exactly nothing. I would have gone right to Bob to see what he says. It is either going to be a quick yes or a quick no. This is a clear cut case if he wanted it. Not sure that he would want a 20k max case though.
Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed. I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
  • Threads: 68
  • Posts: 11933
Joined: Jan 12, 2010
April 3rd, 2017 at 4:21:48 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

Maximum Aggregate Payouts are robbery no matter how you look at it, in my opinion. It's a partial free roll for the casino and falsely increases the House Edge of a particular game or proposition as compared to the listed paytable. Granted, if it is something like a side bet, then sure, but on a base game!? Please. If the casino can't handle the maximum possible payout according to what the paytable says, then the casino should reduce the max bet that they are willing to take.


This is not opinion. It's a fact!
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
ahiromu
ahiromu
  • Threads: 112
  • Posts: 2107
Joined: Jan 15, 2010
April 3rd, 2017 at 5:45:10 PM permalink
Quote: charliepatrick

If I read it correctly their max aggregate cannot be less than the highest possible payout for a minimum bet.



Yeah, minimum is usually $1 (you should see the looks I get betting $100 main and $1 Fortune). However, the envy payouts only kick in when you bet $5 on the side bet. My issue is that they're actively encouraging you to bet more, such that the payout for the jackpot (7 card straight flush, no joker) will pay more than the max aggregate. I'm sure they're following the law, but it's pretty scummy since many/most people bet $5 on it.
Its - Possessive; It's - "It is" / "It has"; There - Location; Their - Possessive; They're - "They are"
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1491
  • Posts: 26435
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
April 3rd, 2017 at 6:49:58 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

It's obviously a rule. Just doesn't specify the penalty. If the penalty was paying the full amount won, you would think it would say it. Could just be a fine. You never know with these things.



If the sign was not on the table, which surveillance footage should prove or disprove, I'd give the player at least a 90% chance of winning. I know I've done my share of griping about Gaming but this would be such a slam dunk case for the player, assuming the sign wasn't there. It doesn't need to specify a penalty. If the sign isn't there, then the rule on the sign doesn't apply. Ten years ago I wouldn't have been so confident, but Gaming has been more player friendly lately.

If the player loses this case and the sign was not on the table I will raise hell about it.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
  • Threads: 68
  • Posts: 11933
Joined: Jan 12, 2010
April 3rd, 2017 at 6:51:32 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

1 in 133,784,560


I forgot about the joker. 1 in 154,143,080. That's to get the exact same 7 cards out of 53.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1491
  • Posts: 26435
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
April 3rd, 2017 at 6:54:20 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I forgot about the joker. 1 in 154,143,080. That's to get the exact same 7 cards out of 53.



The winning even is a 7-card natural straight flush. There are 4 suits and 8 possible spans, for 32 total winning hands. Then divide that by the total combinations of 154143080. So a 1 in 4,816,971 chance.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
  • Threads: 68
  • Posts: 11933
Joined: Jan 12, 2010
April 3rd, 2017 at 6:57:01 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

The winning even is a 7-card natural straight flush. There are 4 suits and 8 possible spans, for 32 total winning hands. Then divide that by the total combinations of 154143080. So a 1 in 4,816,971 chance.


I know, but she just asked about having the exact same hand. She didn't specify that it had to be a natural 7 carder.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
armyegad
armyegad
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 14
Joined: Apr 1, 2017
April 3rd, 2017 at 6:57:26 PM permalink
GWAE, who is this Bob? Is he a lawyer frequenting this site? Would love a second opinion for the $30,000 the casino did not honor. For those wondering, I took pictures of the table clearly showing there was no sign on the table. Would be hard for one to argue even if the video footage is not produced. Will see what happens but I also have the impression the committee is more of a pacifier than it is a source for support.
Mission146
Mission146
  • Threads: 142
  • Posts: 16832
Joined: May 15, 2012
April 3rd, 2017 at 7:05:29 PM permalink
Quote: ahiromu

I agree, but there's something particularly evil about the $25k max payout. As it is with those games where it comes into play for the main hand you are alluding to.

I completely understand the business desire for a max aggregate, especially for small outfits. I feel like they should have to spell out that if you bet more than $3/$6 for $25k/50k you will be underpaid on a "jackpot" hit.



I would be fine with what you suggest in the second paragraph, a sign that says, "If you bet more than $x, you are getting less than the full possible return of the intended game.

Quote:

I once watched a young woman (litigator in NYC, obviously intelligent) bet something like $100 main game and $200 Fortune. All I could think of is how much she was losing EV wise, because even the smaller wins would be subject to the max aggregate. The worst part was that she was winning.



That's the problem, if people really understood what was going on with the Max Aggregate, I don't think you'd see that kind of action on carnival games of that nature. In fact, they should have a sliding scale showing how much the return goes down for every extra $5 bet, or something along those lines.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
beachbumbabs
beachbumbabs
  • Threads: 100
  • Posts: 14260
Joined: May 21, 2013
April 3rd, 2017 at 7:17:06 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I know, but she just asked about having the exact same hand. She didn't specify that it had to be a natural 7 carder.



Both hands were Q-6 diamonds. I saw the picture from the guy who was there that night. I didn't see the actual hand.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
LuckyPhow
LuckyPhow
  • Threads: 55
  • Posts: 698
Joined: May 19, 2016
April 4th, 2017 at 9:07:41 AM permalink
Quote: armyegad

GWAE, who is this Bob? Is he a lawyer frequenting this site?



(Probably) not on this site. He is THE most prominent Las Vegas attorney winning against casinos. Google "Bob Nersesian las vegas" to get info about his law firm. Google didn't report an internet site for his firm.

Good luck.
RS
RS
  • Threads: 62
  • Posts: 8626
Joined: Feb 11, 2014
April 4th, 2017 at 9:56:17 AM permalink
A bit off topic but close enough. How does the max aggregate work when multiple players hit a winning hand? I'm not much of a PGP player, so let's say I'm playing blackjack and playing the Lucky Ladies side bet. $25 max bet, $25,000 max aggregate. Hitting QhQh with dealer BJ pays 1000:1 or $25,000.

Let's say seat 1 has JdKs, seat 2 has QhQh, seat 3 has QhQh, dealer has blackjack. All three players have wagered $25. Without a max aggregate, the payouts would be $100, $25k, $25k, respectively. How does the money get chopped up with a $25k max aggregate payout?
  • Jump to: