St Louis area casino info request

I will soon be on an extended trip to St. Louis (and then later Kansas City) and am not at all familiar with local casino options. I'm vaguely aware that there are some, and have heard of something called Lumiere Place, but that's all I know. I don't see any mention of any of the local St. Louis or Missouri gaming joints on this board. This is not planned to be mostly a casino trip per se, but I'll be visiting there for a significant time and would be pleased to hear what anyone who is at all familiar with the lay of the local casino land may be generous enough to share about it.

Lumiere Place is downtown and is a higher end casino. I never seen minimums less than $10 there on our trip last year. The casinos here are spread out. The only two that are close are Lumiere Place and Casino Queen. Casino Queen is a locals low roller joint. Minimums where $3 to $5 on just about every table game when I was there. Those where the only two casinos I visited and I didn't play much at either. Keep in mind that Mo casinos are not open 24/7. If you like to play early morning be sure and check the hours or you may arrive and find the place closed.

St Louis is a awesome place. I hope you enjoy your trip there.

Thank you.

I expect I will enjoy the city, and am very much looking forward to it as a first timer to the town.

Go Cards.

I have the impression (possibly wrong) you're not a CET fan, but Harrah's Kansas City is quite nice, and I enjoy their games. They have 2 room towers (1 non-smoking, 1 some smoking), 4 restaurants, a 2-story casino that's on the Missouri River, and very convenient to downtown and major highways, also easily reached from the MCI airport (both north of downtown). Most games are $5 minimum, though I can't speak for BJ, and they do deal poker. They were open 24/7, though they close most games at least some of the early am hours. Think they had about 40 tables, including craps and roulette, about 20 carnival games total, the rest BJ. I was red-chip the whole time, but they treated me like a total VIP. So I recommend them pretty highly.

They opened the hotel part about 10 years ago, so the rooms are still pretty fresh, good amenities, nice size with good bedding. Pool, spa, nicer than most LV downtown properties, not as nice as most direct-strip properties. I think a fair comparison would be Bally's LV.

Just down the road from them there's an Ameristar. Known as a lowballer place that attracts a rough element, so I haven't visited since my first time there 20 years ago and can't really give you any info that's useful now.

Thanks B, that's useful. You've just increased my knowledge of KC casinos by infinity. I had no idea Caesars had a property there. I feel like I should have known that, but I didn't. I looked for one around St. Looo on the TR site, but somehow missed the KC place on the list while doing that.

You're right that I not all warm & fuzzy about Caesars casinos & some aspects of their management of them. Like cleaning & maintenance, and, well, management. But that's in the context of being around where fancy gold plated casinos are more common than dry-cleaners. I'll be putting that spoiled mindset away in a box long before I hear a word spoken in "Mizzoorah."

Quote: DrawingDead

Thanks B, that's useful. You've just increased my knowledge of KC casinos by infinity. I had no idea Caesars had a property there. I feel like I should have known that, but I didn't. I looked for one around St. Looo on the TR site, but somehow missed the KC place on the list while doing that.

You're right that I not all warm & fuzzy about Caesars casinos & some aspects of their management of them. Like cleaning & maintenance, and, well, management. But that's in the context of being around where fancy gold plated casinos are more common than dry-cleaners. I'll be putting that spoiled mindset away in a box long before I hear a word spoken in "Mizzoorah."

I would give Harrah's KC high marks for cleanliness in all rooms and restaurants. The casino feels a bit worn, but the service is quite good and the tables themselves don't feel dirty. You will not find a better steak, and you're right in the heart of quality beef in KC, so that's a high bar to clear. A reasonably good buffet, and at least two of the restaurants serve good KC barbeque.

There was a Harrah's STL property for about 20 years, but I think they sold it about 2 years ago. Think it was a Horseshoe or Hollywood, something like that. Somebody's still operating it; it's right on the Mississippi, near the arch, but can't recall much else about it.

Well B, clueless out of town beggars (such as I will be shortly) can't be too choosey, and maybe I'm finding a few ways to warm up to this outpost of The Empire. It seems they actually have cooked up a special 'Even Bob repellent plan' for my amusement, and perhaps to the horror of others:

Quote: Harrah's Kansas City

Valet parking fee: $15 per night.

DD, I think WoV member Tringlomane mentioned that he is familiar with that area in one of his trip reports. Hopefully he will see this thread and drop some knowledge on us.

I remember going to the St. Louis Harrah's (now Hollywood) back in 2007. However, I don't remember much about it other than they took away my Platinum card and gave me back a Gold card! :P Actually, I couldn't figure how a red-chipper like me had gotten Platinum in the first place, so it wasn't a big deal. IIRC, it was/is located in Earth City, a few miles west of the STL airport.

BTW, love your avatar! Definitely not what I think of when I hear the term 'Drawing Dead,' but quite literally appropriate!

Quote: DrawingDead

Well B, clueless out of town beggars (such as I will be shortly) can't be too choosey, and maybe I'm finding a few ways to warm up to this outpost of The Empire. It seems they actually have cooked up a special 'Even Bob repellent plan' for my amusement, and perhaps to the horror of others:

DD,

Valet parking was free. They didn't even ask me for money or my Diamond card. I'm not sure where you found that reference, but I just tipped them a couple bucks, there was no other charge. I was a hotel guest, so perhaps that was the difference. But I didn't see them charging anyone else either.

Never thought my first post would be on this!
STL and KC have a ton of casino options.

STL
1.) Casino Queen - It's in East St. Louis, so a fairly shady neighborhood. The minimums are the lowest you'll find in the area, with $3 carps and $5 blackjack. Video poker there is stingy, I think I could only find 7/5 JoB. A big perk of the casino to me is that the casino is in Illinois, so the whole casino is non-smoking.
Side note - There's no Pai Gow Poker (I believe only one casino in Illinois has PGP), or poker room.

2.) Lumiere Place - This is the downtown casino. It used to be owned by Pinnacle Entertainment, but after Pinnacle bought Ameristar, they had 3 casinos in STL, and state regulators forced them to sell one. They sold Lumiere. It's the nicest looking casino in the area, and it also has the highest minimums. Self parking on weekends or days of an event cast cost between $20 and $40, but you get it back if a pit boss validates your parking slip. You won't find any $5 tables, but you get full play JoB at $1 and up (I think quarter is either 9/5 or 8/6), and 44 Deuces from 5 cents and up.

3.) River City - This is one of the Pinnacle properties. It's in the southeast part of the STL area, near the river. It's primarily a locals casino. They always have 1 $5 blackjack table, and usually 1 $5 craps table. Carnival games are $5, except Pai Gow Poker is $10. Everything else is $10 and up. There's no good video poker unless you're going $1 and up. They've been running a promotion for a while for new members that you get a free buffet when you earn 25 points. ($5 coin-in on slots and $10 coin in on VP=1 point)

4.) Ameristar - If you're driving to KC, Ameristar is not out of the way, it's in the western suburb of Maryland Heights. They are also a Pinnacle property, and you use the same card at both places. Ameristar used to be my go-to property in STL, since I'm up a card level at Pinnacle properties. But the last couple times I went, I was denied a PD comp. It's a nice building, with tall ceilings which help mitigate smoke. You'll find $5 tables during the day, but they get bumped up to $10 at night. Their video poker is pretty limited. Before the Pinnacle acquisition, Ameristar marketed their slots. Pinnacle's focus is table games. And video poker got ignored. However if you look carefully through the casino, you'll find one bank of 25 cent full pay JoB.

5.) Hollywood - This casino is also in the west suburbs, this time Maryland Heights. It's not too far from Ameristar. It's owned by Penn National Gaming, and they are currently working on integrating all of their cards together. I've never seen $5 blackjack, but I don't think I've seen the minimums ever go higher than $10. Craps minimums are also $10, and carnival minimums are $5. This is probably your best place to go for video poker. At a quarter and up, you get 9/6 JoB, 8/5 Bonus Poker, and 9/6 Double Double Bonus. Toke rate is down there, take care of the dealers there and a PD comp will be easy to get if you just ask.


En Route from STL to KC

1.) Isle of Capri Boonville - It's in the middle of nowhere. It seems like its the only attraction the town has as the parking lot has always been full. All of the table minimums are $10, and game pickings are fairly slim. There's full play JoB at $1, but there is zero good video poker at a quarter and down. If you're hungry, you can get a free buffet on sign up if you share your e-mail.

KC (Not quite as familiar)

1.) Harrah's North Kansas City - Owned by CET. Dealers are friendly, and table minimums during the day are $5. They go up to $10 at night, but carnival games and one craps table usually stay at $5. I tend to tip more than I should, and I'm guessing tipping goes a long way here since about 2 hours of play at $5 Three Card Poker (betting ante only), and $5 Ultimate Texas Hold'em (Ante/Blind only), somehow get me $25 in free play every week, and 3 free hotel nights any day of the week. There's no good video poker here, even at $1, although there is quite a bit of Ultimate X.

2.) Isle of Capri - I would go there at least once just for the fun of it. The entire inside of the casino is covered in bright yellow banners with giant smiling emoticons. Same card as Boonville. The tables are $5 and $10 during the day, and go up to $10 at night. Craps and carnival games stay at $5. All of the video poker sucked, except for one lone 25 cent 44 Deuces Wild by the cage.

3.) Ameristar - Owned by Pinnacle. Uses the same card as the properties in STL. Table minimums are $10 almost everywhere, with some carnivals being $5. Video Poker is stingy, no full pay JoB, but there is a bit of 44 Deuces Wild scattered around. They have a ton of tables, but it can still be hard to get on the games, especially at night.

4.) Argosy - Not a lot of play there by me. It's a Penn National Property. Table minimums were $10 at blackjack, and $5 everywhere else. Nothing really good at video poker either, at any denomination.

5.) Hollywood Casino at Kansas Speedway - Also a Penn National property, same card. Lots of video poker, but nothing good. There was a bunch of Ultimate X, and I saw quite a few players leave behind good multipliers, even on 25 cent machines. Table minimums are $10, it seems like it's build to handle a post event crowd at the race track.

Hopefully this helps a little bit! Good luck at the tables!

Quote: PlusEVMinBet

Never thought my first post would be on this!
STL and KC have a ton of casino options.

STL
1.) Casino Queen - It's in East St. Louis, so a fairly shady neighborhood. The minimums are the lowest you'll find in the area, with $3 carps and $5 blackjack. Video poker there is stingy, I think I could only find 7/5 JoB. A big perk of the casino to me is that the casino is in Illinois, so the whole casino is non-smoking.
Side note - There's no Pai Gow Poker (I believe only one casino in Illinois has PGP), or poker room.

2.) Lumiere Place - This is the downtown casino. It used to be owned by Pinnacle Entertainment, but after Pinnacle bought Ameristar, they had 3 casinos in STL, and state regulators forced them to sell one. They sold Lumiere. It's the nicest looking casino in the area, and it also has the highest minimums. Self parking on weekends or days of an event cast cost between $20 and $40, but you get it back if a pit boss validates your parking slip. You won't find any $5 tables, but you get full play JoB at $1 and up (I think quarter is either 9/5 or 8/6), and 44 Deuces from 5 cents and up.

3.) River City - This is one of the Pinnacle properties. It's in the southeast part of the STL area, near the river. It's primarily a locals casino. They always have 1 $5 blackjack table, and usually 1 $5 craps table. Carnival games are $5, except Pai Gow Poker is $10. Everything else is $10 and up. There's no good video poker unless you're going $1 and up. They've been running a promotion for a while for new members that you get a free buffet when you earn 25 points. ($5 coin-in on slots and $10 coin in on VP=1 point)

4.) Ameristar - If you're driving to KC, Ameristar is not out of the way, it's in the western suburb of Maryland Heights. They are also a Pinnacle property, and you use the same card at both places. Ameristar used to be my go-to property in STL, since I'm up a card level at Pinnacle properties. But the last couple times I went, I was denied a PD comp. It's a nice building, with tall ceilings which help mitigate smoke. You'll find $5 tables during the day, but they get bumped up to $10 at night. Their video poker is pretty limited. Before the Pinnacle acquisition, Ameristar marketed their slots. Pinnacle's focus is table games. And video poker got ignored. However if you look carefully through the casino, you'll find one bank of 25 cent full pay JoB.

5.) Hollywood - This casino is also in the west suburbs, this time Maryland Heights. It's not too far from Ameristar. It's owned by Penn National Gaming, and they are currently working on integrating all of their cards together. I've never seen $5 blackjack, but I don't think I've seen the minimums ever go higher than $10. Craps minimums are also $10, and carnival minimums are $5. This is probably your best place to go for video poker. At a quarter and up, you get 9/6 JoB, 8/5 Bonus Poker, and 9/6 Double Double Bonus. Toke rate is down there, take care of the dealers there and a PD comp will be easy to get if you just ask.


En Route from STL to KC

1.) Isle of Capri Boonville - It's in the middle of nowhere. It seems like its the only attraction the town has as the parking lot has always been full. All of the table minimums are $10, and game pickings are fairly slim. There's full play JoB at $1, but there is zero good video poker at a quarter and down. If you're hungry, you can get a free buffet on sign up if you share your e-mail.

KC (Not quite as familiar)

1.) Harrah's North Kansas City - Owned by CET. Dealers are friendly, and table minimums during the day are $5. They go up to $10 at night, but carnival games and one craps table usually stay at $5. I tend to tip more than I should, and I'm guessing tipping goes a long way here since about 2 hours of play at $5 Three Card Poker (betting ante only), and $5 Ultimate Texas Hold'em (Ante/Blind only), somehow get me $25 in free play every week, and 3 free hotel nights any day of the week. There's no good video poker here, even at $1, although there is quite a bit of Ultimate X.

2.) Isle of Capri - I would go there at least once just for the fun of it. The entire inside of the casino is covered in bright yellow banners with giant smiling emoticons. Same card as Boonville. The tables are $5 and $10 during the day, and go up to $10 at night. Craps and carnival games stay at $5. All of the video poker sucked, except for one lone 25 cent 44 Deuces Wild by the cage.

3.) Ameristar - Owned by Pinnacle. Uses the same card as the properties in STL. Table minimums are $10 almost everywhere, with some carnivals being $5. Video Poker is stingy, no full pay JoB, but there is a bit of 44 Deuces Wild scattered around. They have a ton of tables, but it can still be hard to get on the games, especially at night.

4.) Argosy - Not a lot of play there by me. It's a Penn National Property. Table minimums were $10 at blackjack, and $5 everywhere else. Nothing really good at video poker either, at any denomination.

5.) Hollywood Casino at Kansas Speedway - Also a Penn National property, same card. Lots of video poker, but nothing good. There was a bunch of Ultimate X, and I saw quite a few players leave behind good multipliers, even on 25 cent machines. Table minimums are $10, it seems like it's build to handle a post event crowd at the race track.

Hopefully this helps a little bit! Good luck at the tables!

Plus EV,

Welcome to the forum! Thanks for the extensive scouting report; much appreciated!

^Thanks so very much +EV-M.B. for the great courtesy of posting that very informative & super useful detailed response, which I'm delighted to say I only have time to skim at the moment. That's a visitor's Q&A jackpot, and I'll have to print that one on my way out the door.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Quote: DrawingDead

Well B, clueless out of town beggars (such as I will be shortly) can't be too choosey, and maybe I'm finding a few ways to warm up to this outpost of The Empire. It seems they actually have cooked up a special 'Even Bob repellent plan' for my amusement, and perhaps to the horror of others:

DD,

Valet parking was free. They didn't even ask me for money or my Diamond card. I'm not sure where you found that reference, but I just tipped them a couple bucks, there was no other charge. I was a hotel guest, so perhaps that was the difference. But I didn't see them charging anyone else either.

Was your visit recent? The "valet parking fee" was copied from the "Hotel Information" page that you get on their website when you go to check rates or book at the property, listed along with the stuff like "Pet deposit: $150" and "Rollaway bed fee: $10 per night." Perhaps it was your charm & good looks, or else they've made a change. Or somebody didn't get the memo; I promise not to give it to them. Not that I really care about it any more than a pet deposit or the rental of a baby crib. I just wanna see a steamed version of EB poking into his socks trying to find fiddeen-dollah, as a spectator sport.

Not casino related but I recommend you do the budweiser factory tour. They have a free one and a paid one. Splurge and do the paid 1. You get more behind the scenes, sample of beer before the yeast or after can't remember, and you get to tap a keg of brand new not even bottled yet beer.

You also get the behind the scenes tour of the Clydesdales and the dalmations.

This is probably one of the most memorable things that I have ever done.

I was there in late March of this year.

Quote: PlusEVMinBet

Never thought my first post would be on this!
STL and KC have a ton of casino options.

STL
1.) Casino Queen - It's in East St. Louis, so a fairly shady neighborhood. The minimums are the lowest you'll find in the area.

(Shortened for space)

Hopefully this helps a little bit! Good luck at the tables!

WOW!
Can you move one or two states in any direction you like and do that again? Amazing.
Thanks

Not in any direction, but I actually live in the Chicago area, so I can do a scouting report there, and be even more detailed.

Quote: PlusEVMinBet

Not in any direction, but I actually live in the Chicago area, so I can do a scouting report there, and be even more detailed.

That would be useful. Could use an update on the Chicago-area houses.

Quote: Joeman

DD, I think WoV member Tringlomane mentioned that he is familiar with that area in one of his trip reports. Hopefully he will see this thread and drop some knowledge on us.

I am! But at least plusEV covered a lot of the details for me.

But unless you want to do something downtown, I'd avoid lumiere or the casino queen. Smallish casinos.

Hollywood/Ameristar are a decent pair less than ten minutes apart. I think River City is the nicest looking casino in STL.

KC i probably skip Isle of Capri and Argosy. Argosy does have full pay quick quads for quarters at least. Hollywood KS Speedway and Ameristar are the nicest places overall imo.

Quote: teddys

That would be useful. Could use an update on the Chicago-area houses.

Hammond got rid of full pay single hand ultimate 4 of a kind bonus this summer. :( 7/5 BP was 99.96% on that game and it was $10 per TC. :(

Blue chip is all sub 99% VP. Meh.

A couple of months ago, Argosy KC had to close for the evening due to a partial power failure which affected surveillance. They wouldn't even let most people cash out. It was quite funny.

So, I've been town for a few hours, and oddly enough have not yet bankrupted a single casino. But I've also artfully avoided going busto myself, by cleverly arranging to be way too exhausted to do anything tonight. Since my vague open ended question got much more and better information than I imagined, I almost feel a little guilt that it may be wasted on me, as I'll be spending a lot more time watching young men try to hit a little white ball with a big wooden stick than in any of the casinos over the next few weeks. But then, it'll probably also serve as a resource for some others who may not be squandering their casino money on such things.

Quote: beachbumbabs

I was there in late March of this year.

Hmmm. I'm actually more inclined to believe your recollection of your direct experience on that than what the company says in writing that it is doing. I'm not kidding or trying to get snarky; I'm having no trouble believing that they may have a publicly published fee (and in my opinion probably a stupid one) which they aren't actually collecting, and that the people who'd need implement it may not even know about. I won't be finding out any more about that item, at least not as something added to a hotel guest's folio,, since in both cities I'm booked in hotels that mostly cater to business travelers and aren't connected to any casinos.

Quote: DrawingDead

In both cities I'm booked in hotels that mostly cater to business travelers and aren't connected to any casinos.

Just so you're aware of it. After the blockading of Interstate 70 this afternoon, St. Louis County has declared a state of emergency. But no reported curfew yet.

Well, we have just booked travel to St. Louis to go see the UF/Mizzou game in Columbia in October. My wife & I are flying into STL on that Thursday night and plan to do some touristy things Friday morning -- the Arch (we already have tickets), possibly the zoo or Grant's Farm (we'll see what Mrs. Joeman wants). But Friday afternoon/evening, and probably some time Saturday (depending on what time they schedule the game), I'll want to hit up one of the casinos. It seemed appropriate to continue with this thread.

We're staying Fri & Sat nights in St. Charles, so I've pretty much narrowed it down to either Hollywood or Ameristar. I'm looking for low table minimums ($5 Craps and/or BJ, if possible) & possibly some VP (JoB or DW). I read PlusEV's reviews on Pg 1, but it still looks like a toss-up. Does anybody have any opinions of one over the other?

I have actually been to both casinos briefly several years ago, but don't remember too much about either.

The zoo is definitely fun, only major zoo in the country that is free. Forest Park itself is nice as well. Both Ameristar and Hollywood are going to be mostly $10 minimums on the weekends. Ameristar doesn't have a bus line that runs to it so it tends to be the safer casino. Hollywood deals with a lot more of the shadier crowd. Also if there is a concert at the Hollywood Casino Amphitheater it can get crazy around Hollywood.

Quote: Joeman

Well, we have just booked travel to St. Louis to go see the UF/Mizzou game in Columbia in October. My wife & I are flying into STL on that Thursday night and plan to do some touristy things Friday morning -- the Arch (we already have tickets), possibly the zoo or Grant's Farm (we'll see what Mrs. Joeman wants). But Friday afternoon/evening, and probably some time Saturday (depending on what time they schedule the game), I'll want to hit up one of the casinos. It seemed appropriate to continue with this thread.

We're staying Fri & Sat nights in St. Charles, so I've pretty much narrowed it down to either Hollywood or Ameristar. I'm looking for low table minimums ($5 Craps and/or BJ, if possible) & possibly some VP (JoB or DW). I read PlusEV's reviews on Pg 1, but it still looks like a toss-up. Does anybody have any opinions of one over the other?

I have actually been to both casinos briefly several years ago, but don't remember too much about either.

I would recommend zoo over Grant's Farm, fwiw.

I assume this is a one-off trip? Otherwise I would suggest Hollywood for mailer potential.

Ameristar is the nicer casino overall. On weekends, both places will probably be $10 minimum for BJ, not sure about Craps.

VP, I would consider brushing up on full pay "Bonus Deuces" (99.45%), all regular deuces paytables are poor at either location. Both places have 9/6 Jacks (99.54%) for quarters. But Ameristar's location for them make you feel like you're being punished. Hollywood also has 35/8/5 Bonus (99.66%), my game of choice when I play there, strategy is close to 9/6 Jacks.

35/8/5 Bonus strategy
https://wizardofodds.com/games/video-poker/strategy/a-1-b-74-c-1-d-0-d-1-d-2-d-3-d-4-d-5-d-8-d-35-d-50-d-800/

99.45% Bonus Deuces
https://wizardofodds.com/games/video-poker/strategy/a-1-b-34-c-1-d-0-d-1-d-1-d-3-d-4-d-4-d-9-d-20-d-40-d-80-d-25-d-200-d-400-d-800/

http://www.vpfree2.com/casino/ameristar-st-charles

http://www.vpfree2.com/casino/hollywood-casino-st-louis

I probably should be going to the game since it's homecoming...but with Mizzou being decent and in the SEC...$$$$. :( If you get a chance, you should take a walk thru of the campus as well. I'm also partial to "The Heidelberg" for bar food. Also "Shakespeare's Pizza" is well-known and quite good. But the original location got demolished this summer apparently and they are rebuilding.

Thanks for the info, Jessie & Tring. I think I'm going to lean towards the Ameristar. I'll have to see the "punishment" area where they put the full pay machines. It can't be worse than the Biloxi Palace, whose VP machines are right next to the Karaoke bar, right? :P

Quote: Joeman

Thanks for the info, Jessie & Tring. I think I'm going to lean towards the Ameristar. I'll have to see the "punishment" area where they put the full pay machines. It can't be worse than the Biloxi Palace, whose VP machines are right next to the Karaoke bar, right? :P

They are in a corner facing a wall at the opposite end of the casino from the poker room. And there are no other machines within ~8 feet of that bank. But there is a bar nearby that won't make it so lonely on the weekend. I more often show up there on weekdays. Bit depressing, but not surprising.

Harrah's at KC is all about baccarat. You have three $100 tables and three $10 tables. The action is 24/7, a lot of heavy bettors. Many players are very experienced and if you happen to sit with one of them you can win tons of money. Hollywood and Harrah's both have crapless craps. Fun to watch people bet across, win it all or go bust attitude. In general, St. Louis crowd are well to do people, casinos seem to be generous, though don't play carnival games, dealers are highly proficient, for example, you can play Mississippi stud and don't win a single hand and I mean never, the same goes with roulette.

Chiming in on the KC casinos. Me and my wife were in KC over labor day weekend and checked out the local casinos. We played at the Ameristar one night and at Harrahs on the other but we did managed to go check out the Argosy and Isle of Capri though we didnt play.

B/w the Ameristar and the Harrahs me and my wife enjoyed Harrahs a tad more. Both places had a few 5 dollar tables open at night when we were there but we seemed to be able to get a seat at Harrahs, there were even more tables at Ameristar I believe but it was packed and harder to get a seat. Ameristar had more machines and was a bigger place. Argosy and Isle of Capri seemed nice and clean from what i could tell but like I said we didnt play there.

We played alot of blackjack at Harrahs when we were there and we managed to play for hours with the same dealer, i forgot her name but she was a bit older lady but she was very nice and kept joking around trying to get us to play the +3 bet and would give us a hard time when would get the 3oak but no +3 bet. :) Also at one point a bad player tried to double a hard 14 vs a 6 and she just yelled out "NO NO NO" like your own mom or grandmother would do, was funny.

Since posting this thread I made two extended trips, spending a total of about three and a half or four weeks in STL and about ten days altogether in KC. I thought I should return the courtesy of the responses to my query by giving back what I may have learned, but I really can't improve or expand on what others have said that's specific to casino information; in spite of all my recent time there these folks still know them better and have covered it better than I could.

Quote: Joeman

Well, we have just booked travel to St. Louis to go see the UF/Mizzou game in Columbia in October. My wife & I are flying into STL on that Thursday night and plan to do some touristy things Friday morning -- the Arch (we already have tickets), possibly the zoo or Grant's Farm (we'll see what Mrs. Joeman wants). But Friday afternoon/evening, and probably some time Saturday (depending on what time they schedule the game), I'll want to hit up one of the casinos. It seemed appropriate to continue with this thread.

We're staying Fri & Sat nights in St. Charles, so I've pretty much narrowed it down to either Hollywood or Ameristar. I'm looking for low table minimums ($5 Craps and/or BJ, if possible) & possibly some VP (JoB or DW). I read PlusEV's reviews on Pg 1, but it still looks like a toss-up. Does anybody have any opinions of one over the other?

I have actually been to both casinos briefly several years ago, but don't remember too much about either.

Maybe I could share some thoughts on general getting around stuff for your trip. I drove in, and it sounds like you'll be renting a car for your touristy escapades. St. Louis is not an easy driving city. In the central core it is more like an older eastern city than a western city, major high-volume streets can be quite narrow, and do not have a consistent easy grid pattern to them rarely going straight through from one part of town to another. Parking in the central city can be expensive, where it exists, which it sometimes doesn't even in places you'd naturally expect to have it, and the driving habits of locals often tend to be quite, uhmmm, creative. Think of the most ridiculous and totally illegal thing the guy near you should never even imagine suddenly doing at that moment in that spot because it would be most likely to result in chaos and carnage for all, and prepare to escape the probability that he will in fact do exactly that. Because he will. Same for pedestrians. Maybe even more so.

That will sound like a gripe, but it really isn't so much. I found a sort of charm in aspects of the core of the city that made it also not very driveable. I particularly loved a lot of the magnificent old architecture of the city, which I think probably pre-dates the existence of the United States going back to when St. Louis was part of France. But for me the best bet I made there was to buy passes on the local Metrolink commuter rail system for getting around in the city while leaving my car at an outlying park-and-ride lot, which continually had a vsisible 24/7 security doufus present, which was more than I could say about parking at any Las Vegas casinos. Metrolink doesn't go everywhere, and not any of the casinos that I'm aware of, but I found it really good for the touristy type destinations that you have in mind that are centrally located. There are two Forest Park Metrolink stations for example, which covers the zoo and a bunch of other similar stuff, and a designated stop for the arch a few blocks from that attraction - though I think the Busch Stadium station that I used about thirty times might be just as handy for that or more so. I think I paid about $27 for a weekly unlimited travel pass on it, and probably used each of those weekly passes for > 100 rides on it. I would've spent that much parking just one time out of many. But, at some times of day at some places you may have to stand and hold on to the railing for a few miles, so it wouldn't be good for something like a shopping expedition with a bunch of bags to carry.

I'm laughing at you finding St. Louis difficult to drive, not that it isn't. In June 1993, my dad flew out to Portland/Vancouver, and we rented a 24' moving truck and a 2-wheel car dolly, packed me up, and drove all the way to Charleston, SC in 6 days. It was an epic trip, and the longest time I ever got to have with my dad, just the 2 of us, so very, very special to me.

I was the one who drove through St. Louis, and we got there during rush hour. We went through downtown alongside the Mississippi (which was a lousy drive all by itself), corkscrewed up and took the bridge just before the Arch, and went eastbound into Illinois. The bridge and the far side were under severe construction at the time, with the highest, tightest concrete barriers I've ever seen (I swear set a bare 8' at most, and at least 4' high), and everybody barreling single-laned at 70+ MPH in gusty winds. I'm pedal-to-the-metal trying not to be a rock in the road with the speed governor on the truck maxed out, the road all torn up and bumpy from the construction, the back trailer trying to cut loose and sideswipe the high barriers going over the bridge and down the chute if I let off in the slightest, the truck being blown sideways, the clod behind me tailgating and honking because I was going so "slow", and my dad screaming at me, all white-knuckled in the shotgun seat. I still have nightmares about that 20 minutes of pure hell that felt like forever. Seems like we bailed out early in Mt. Vernon IL that night, we were both so stressed out.

I've driven in San Francisco, Boston, NYC, and many other major cities, including Wash DC for several years, and never seen anything quite like it.

Quote: PlusEVMinBet

KC (Not quite as familiar)

1.) Harrah's North Kansas City - Owned by CET. Dealers are friendly, and table minimums during the day are $5. They go up to $10 at night, but carnival games and one craps table usually stay at $5. I tend to tip more than I should, and I'm guessing tipping goes a long way here since about 2 hours of play at $5 Three Card Poker (betting ante only), and $5 Ultimate Texas Hold'em (Ante/Blind only), somehow get me $25 in free play every week, and 3 free hotel nights any day of the week. There's no good video poker here, even at $1, although there is quite a bit of Ultimate X.

3.) Ameristar - Owned by Pinnacle. Uses the same card as the properties in STL. Table minimums are $10 almost everywhere, with some carnivals being $5. Video Poker is stingy, no full pay JoB, but there is a bit of 44 Deuces Wild scattered around. They have a ton of tables, but it can still be hard to get on the games, especially at night.

4.) Argosy - Not a lot of play there by me. It's a Penn National Property. Table minimums were $10 at blackjack, and $5 everywhere else. Nothing really good at video poker either, at any denomination.

5.) Hollywood Casino at Kansas Speedway - Also a Penn National property, same card. Lots of video poker, but nothing good. There was a bunch of Ultimate X, and I saw quite a few players leave behind good multipliers, even on 25 cent machines. Table minimums are $10, it seems like it's build to handle a post event crowd at the race track.

Hopefully this helps a little bit! Good luck at the tables!

KC native who spends a lot of time traveling the corn/wheat states, I'd like to offer my opinion on a few of these as well.

First and foremost, of the 4 casinos I've left in your quote (Harrahs, Ameristar, Argosy, and Hollywood) they all operate reasonably similar to one another in how they manage their tables. Each casino will have at minimum, one $5 craps table open, even on the weekends. At Ameristar you'll get 20x odds, everywhere else is 10x odds. Each casino will have at least two $5 tables operating at all times except when the weekend rush comes and/or the players die down and they "close them down" to just a table or two, and its common for it to be either a $5 table or $10 table depending on which day you land on. During the weekends each casino will have $5 tables that are absolutely impossible to get on, on top of this, they'll be at the ends of the pits/tables areas, with the centers of the pits tending to be $10/15/25 tables. Its incredibly rare to see a $10 craps table in KC unless there's a major event going on, (All star game weekend last year, Nascar Races, big artists at sprint center, etc. ). Su-Thur you will always find table games at $5 with offerings of $10/15/25 as well in various high limit areas and or in the centers of the pits. Video Poker as a whole accross Missouri and Kansas have very little to offer in terms of "good" games.

1. Harrahs is an absolute dump. This place is dirty, they spend very little time on cleaning ash trays, throwing drinks away etc. If you go upstairs, its even worse. Someone had mentioned in this thread about "undesirables" being at Ameristar, but that's actually a little backwards. Most of the undesirables are centered around Harrahs, while also mixing with some extremely high end players. On the whole, its a fairly average place with a broad mix of players old, young, ghetto, wealthy, you name it. Minibac is HUGE here and because of it, they have the largest "hold" on asian players than any casino in KC. Overall, a fairly average hotel/dining experience, nothing to rave about.

3. Ameristar is a pretty popular place in KC and ultimately has the foothold in the "KC North/Northeast" market. Locals in KC will tell you that hands down the food is better there than anywhere else from the top to the bottom. The rooms are dated since it used to be the old station casino and one of the originals in the area. They've done a fairly good job at remodeling them however, but the rooms tend to be on the smaller side. Best odds in the city on craps, and tend to have all around better odds and pays on table games than most other places in KC.

4. Argosy among the locals comes in at the #2 casino in town, behind Ameristar. The recently remodeled rooms are absolutely lovely, and the food from top to bottom in the place rivals that of Ameristar. Touted as having the best VIP lounge in KC for higher card level players (and they have free alcohol in there!) They just got done revamping their floor layout and consolidating some of the machines into certain areas (they just moved all the VP into one spot instead of having it separated into smaller areas).

One thing to note, though, is that several years ago Missouri legislation or Missouri Gaming made the decision to remove all "Must hit" progressives from all casinos in Missouri, so don't expect to see any of them on the Missouri side.

Which brings me to #5.

5. Hollywood Casino is the only place in the KC area (just minutes west of the state line, and centered in the Legends district which is an awesome touristy place as well) that offers "must hit" progressives. For a while they were starting to remove them, but with a recent casino ops promotion and some shuffling of management, they reversed that plan and started to add them back. You won't find quick strikes here, but you'll find your typical range and variety of WMS progressives. This place offers practically nothing for Video Poker in terms of "solid" payback, most of it is 97-98% stuff. There is, however, no hotel (which is odd considering they hand built the place 3 or 4 years ago) so you'll have to book your stay at one of the 7 or 8 nearby hotels within the legends area. Of all the casinos in the area, Hollywood is by far the cleanest place of all. It is, however, not without its flaws. The casino hosts offer very little for comps, the "marquee rewards" card is fairly weak in terms of what they'll offer, beyond a "decent" Slotplay return, and for the locals, its the absolute worst VIP lounge around, if eating egg rolls and crab rangoon is your idea of a meal, or red beans and rice with corn muffins, then this is the place for you. But if you want fried chicken and mashed potatoes and gravy, you'll have to look elsewhere (Thursday at Ameristar, Friday at Argosy).

All in all, the two best places to "play" are Ameristar and Hollywood, with Ameristar having ridiculous accommodations like Kids Quest, an Arcade, a Movie theatre and much, much, more. If you like a busy weekend spot, Hollywood's your gig, especially if you're a clean freak. Harrahs isn't bad, buts its more of a "weekday" place than any other casino, except for maybe Argosy which is busy with midweek promotions.


To clear up one thing you mentioned PlusEVMinBet, the Ultimate X at Hollywood is impossible to "vulture", as are basically everywhere else in KC except for maybe Isle of Capri. In KC there are approximately 4 full time hustlers per casino that are there just about all day every day. Of all the places I've traveled to, KC is by far the "hardest" to settle down and Vulture in, except for maybe Vegas. St. Louis also comes near the top of that list as there are about 5 or 6 guys per casino there full time, though they are significantly less talented than the guys in KC. If you were able to find stuff at Hollywood in KC, I'd be shocked. Though, if it were "after hours" or on low playing days like Monday/Tuesday I wouldn't be all that surprised, unless this was years ago when they first opened.


As for the stuff in STL.

I'm a big fan of Lumiere personally since its in downtown and I'm absolutely in love with downtown STL, except for of course the traffic, since STL streets were poorly planned out and essentially planned out like a "rivershed", with everything eventually culminating at a giant clusterfuck when you get to the river lol.

The Ameristar is top notch out there, and the hollywood isn't that bad either. Those are probably my top 3 casinos in that area

Well, I'm the one who spread the Ameristar rumor, which I did not personally check out, so I'm going to retract it and try the place myself when I'm up there next. Sorry about that, Ameristar.

Thanks for the detailed update, Exo!

One thing I neglected to mention that I found different about the Missouri casinos is that they apparently don't have racebooks. Boo, and phooey on that. Maybe many casino folk wouldn't notice that, but it was notable to me. Of course full-fledged sports books in licensed legal places have never been available anywhere but Nevada, but every other non-Nevada casino I've seen has facilities for off-track betting on racing. Apparently Missouri is one of the states that doesn't currently choose to participate in the Interstate Horse Racing and Wagering Act, and doesn't allow race betting on TVG & Xpressbet & Twinspires & suchlike either. I know Illinois does, though I didn't go to any casinos over there to see what their set-up for it might be. I also didn't see what they have in Kansas, but since I know wagering on Twinspires & TVG & the like is available in that state I'd guess that a casino over the border in Kansas City, KS would probably have a racebook of some sort, unlike those on the Missouri side of State Line Road.

Maybe I'll find out more on that little (to some others) point, since I'm now booking my third and final trip of the year. To go to church. In a holy place known to others as Busch Stadium, to pray for little red birds perched on big wooden sticks. And for the health of some Nevada casino future-book wagers on the local flock of said tenaciously persevering birds that I made back in March, now that they just took care of seeing to it that I cash on the first batch of them for me this evening.

Quote: Exoter175

I'm a big fan of Lumiere personally since its in downtown and I'm absolutely in love with downtown STL, except for of course the traffic, since STL streets were poorly planned out and essentially planned out like a "rivershed", with everything eventually culminating at a giant clusterfuck when you get to the river lol.

The Ameristar is top notch out there, and the hollywood isn't that bad either. Those are probably my top 3 casinos in that area

I was at the Lumiere last week and they no longer have any royal progressives on their video poker.. it's all sitting on the 4oaks. And bad pay tables at that... I walked in, walked around and left.

Quote: rsactuary

I was at the Lumiere last week and they no longer have any royal progressives on their video poker.. it's all sitting on the 4oaks. And bad pay tables at that... I walked in, walked around and left.

They got rid of the nickel airport deuces and 9/6 DDB at the non-smoking bar? Blah.

Quote: Exoter175

One thing to note, though, is that several years ago Missouri legislation or Missouri Gaming made the decision to remove all "Must hit" progressives from all casinos in Missouri, so don't expect to see any of them on the Missouri side.

To clear up one thing you mentioned PlusEVMinBet, the Ultimate X at Hollywood is impossible to "vulture", as are basically everywhere else in KC except for maybe Isle of Capri. In KC there are approximately 4 full time hustlers per casino that are there just about all day every day. Of all the places I've traveled to, KC is by far the "hardest" to settle down and Vulture in, except for maybe Vegas. St. Louis also comes near the top of that list as there are about 5 or 6 guys per casino there full time, though they are significantly less talented than the guys in KC. If you were able to find stuff at Hollywood in KC, I'd be shocked. Though, if it were "after hours" or on low playing days like Monday/Tuesday I wouldn't be all that surprised, unless this was years ago when they first opened.

Really no must hits? I haven't paid close attention, but I swear I've seen them in STL within the past couple of years. But I haven't looked recently at slots in STL.

And UX in kc, I've done okay at harrahs. Ameristar KC, forget it. Dude with the gray beard is there EVERY time we've visited. I get a kick out of him looking after us when we play the 2c games straight up and leave nothing behind.

As far as the St. Louis driving comments, yeah downtown isn't the best, but if he's sticking to Ameristar/Hollywood, it's a non-issue. St. Louis suburb driving is some of the easiest I've ever seen.

Quote: tringlomane

As far as the St. Louis driving comments, yeah downtown isn't the best, but if he's sticking to Ameristar/Hollywood, it's a non-issue. St. Louis suburb driving is some of the easiest I've ever seen.

We're actually flying into STL on Thursday night and heading straight downtown. I booked a hotel near the Arch, which we plan to do first thing Friday morning (already have tickets). I've driven in downtown St. Louis twice before, so I'm not too worried (although Babs' story sounded a bit harrowing!) And I'm planning to make sure I get out to St. Charles before the afternoon rush.

The only thing that had me a little concerned was if they scheduled a Cards game that night, but I just checked MLB.com, and only ALDS games are scheduled for Thursday.

Leaving in a week! Go Gators -- no offense, Tring! :)

Edit: In that last statement, I meant to say that I meant no offense to Tringlomane by cheering my Gators against his Tigers, not that the Gators' football team has no offense. (Even if both interpretations happen to be true!)

Quote: Joeman

The only thing that had me a little concerned was if they scheduled a Cards game that night, but I just checked MLB.com, and only ALDS games are scheduled for Thursday.

Leaving in a week! Go Gators -- no offense, Tring! :)

Edit: In that last statement, I meant to say that I meant no offense to Tringlomane by cheering my Gators against his Tigers, not that the Gators' football team has no offense. (Even if both interpretations happen to be true!)

The NL Wild Card is Wednesday and the winner plays at Busch, so that series wouldn't start till Friday.

Mizzou really has no offense. We've looked like crap so far. I think I've already given up on a division championship repeat. Lol

Unfortunately, it looks like I will be out of town that weekend. Otherwise I would stop by the casino and say hello!

Quote: tringlomane

...And UX in kc, I've done okay at harrahs. Ameristar KC, forget it. Dude with the gray beard is there EVERY time we've visited. I get a kick out of him looking after us when we play the 2c games straight up and leave nothing behind...

We've only seen a couple of regular scavengers. At Ameristar KC it's a short, fat balding guy. The games take FOREVER to look through. The slowest we've ever encountered. Talked to him for a second or two once. BTW, there are no 2¢ UX games there anymore. Never saw one at Harrah's and at Argosy it's an older guy with long white hair and a pony tail. Not enough regular UX players in KC to make it worthwhile to hang out all day.

There is not a single hotel that holds a candle to lumiere place- they out you up comp wise in the attached four seasons hotel which they own. Competes with any upscale Vegas property when comparing their basic rooms

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Not enough regular UX players in KC to make it worthwhile to hang out all day.

Nope. Maybe the guy I'm thinking of moved to argosy. Ponytail sounds familiar. Argosy is pretty dead though too when I've visited. And yeah Ameristar KC sucked to look at. Too many machines that are infrequently played. Even St. Charles is worse now because they added more variants to look through. And lately the "German guy" has been there when I show up. I hate the German guy. Lol

Sucks they got rid of the 2c games. It's important I keep my gf entertained. Lol

I do remember the 2¢ games at back bar at Harrah's Council Bluffs.

Quote: rsactuary

I was at the Lumiere last week and they no longer have any royal progressives on their video poker.. it's all sitting on the 4oaks. And bad pay tables at that... I walked in, walked around and left.

Well, I don't believe in my review of their casino, that I suggested the VP or "hustles" were any good, I just like the downtown flair because I love the architecture and history of it all :P

Quote: tringlomane

Really no must hits? I haven't paid close attention, but I swear I've seen them in STL within the past couple of years. But I haven't looked recently at slots in STL.

And UX in kc, I've done okay at harrahs. Ameristar KC, forget it. Dude with the gray beard is there EVERY time we've visited. I get a kick out of him looking after us when we play the 2c games straight up and leave nothing behind.

As far as the St. Louis driving comments, yeah downtown isn't the best, but if he's sticking to Ameristar/Hollywood, it's a non-issue. St. Louis suburb driving is some of the easiest I've ever seen.

They've been gone for I believe 2-2.5 years now from all of missouri STL/KC both. As for the dude with the grey beard, he's dead. He's the one I spoke of in the "can I make a living" thread. That being said, Harrahs for the longest time had a guy practically living there, with 2-3 men/women there on 5-6 hour shifts that worked together with grey beard who was banned from there, who worked argosy about 14-16 hours a day before I recruited him. There's 1 guy at ameristar who goes on cycles. He's there 24/7 for 3 months, off for 2, back on for 3, etc. The guy who practically lived at harrahs, recently switched to ameristar, and there's 3 individuals who stop in at ameristar twice a day. I won't mention much about "my crew" and their presence in both places and their schedules, suffice to say, travelers don't get many plays unless its on a monday or tuesday.

As for STL burbs, totally cake driving, its when you get further east and all of the roads and highways diverge into one another the closer you get to the river, and then you get to the shitty driving part lol.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

We've only seen a couple of regular scavengers. At Ameristar KC it's a short, fat balding guy. The games take FOREVER to look through. The slowest we've ever encountered. Talked to him for a second or two once. BTW, there are no 2¢ UX games there anymore. Never saw one at Harrah's and at Argosy it's an older guy with long white hair and a pony tail. Not enough regular UX players in KC to make it worthwhile to hang out all day.

That short fat bald guy is only one of many at Ameristar, and he's an "inbetweener", he likes to setup comp mailers at each play and go in a couple times a week to play them off. With respect to Ameristar and Harrahs specifically, he's in twice a day before and after work, unless there's a Royals home game, in which he has tickets to. The 2C games are definitely gone, and the white hair ponytail guy (my mentor) bounces around all over the midwest doing this. If you see him at Argosy, you might as well walk out if you're trying to VUX, he's got most all of it locked down, and there's only about a 2 hour window when you can go in and hustle the machines without him there, since he'll be having dinner in VIP and drinking the free beers. He's actually been over in STL/Indiana/Illinois the last month and a half and just returned for a couple weeks. When he's not there, its usually me or "pouch guy" that clear the place out, but Argosy really isn't a place to stick around long since the active players there are so few. With active play, you want Hollywood, Ameristar, and Harrahs, but good luck beating both "crews" out of the plays.

Quote: tringlomane

Nope. Maybe the guy I'm thinking of moved to argosy. Ponytail sounds familiar. Argosy is pretty dead though too when I've visited. And yeah Ameristar KC sucked to look at. Too many machines that are infrequently played. Even St. Charles is worse now because they added more variants to look through. And lately the "German guy" has been there when I show up. I hate the German guy. Lol

Sucks they got rid of the 2c games. It's important I keep my gf entertained. Lol

Ponytail bounced all over the place. His thing went something like this. Get up at noon, clear Argosy, drive to Harrahs, clear it out, drive to Ameristar, clear it out, head back to argosy for dinner/alcohol, retire for the night after he's sweat all remaining X plays. If you are near STL and it sounds like you are, you'll see him frequently over there too.

Trust me when I say KC has the plays, you just won't be able to get them. You're all looking in the wrong spot, and the spot you're looking for is completely locked down by my guys.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I do remember the 2¢ games at back bar at Harrah's Council Bluffs.

At both bars at HCB they have 2C games. ISLEKC also has 2C games on its ASP2.

The guy at Argosy isn't there much that we've seen. Again, just not worth hanging out there for the few nickel plays you'll get. And half of their machines have issues or plain just don't work.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

The guy at Argosy isn't there much that we've seen. Again, just not worth hanging out there for the few nickel plays you'll get. And half of their machines have issues or plain just don't work.

Sounds like you've been there recently, how close do you live to it?

Was there just a couple weeks ago. I don't live close. We go there for other reasons but stop in the casinos and check out the situations. And not just machines.

I honestly think after reading this thread I'm going to send a crew to kc

In my visits I was there twice during the season apparently known to locals as: "The Steam Bath." A little more so in StL than KC, at least when I was there. But I'll be returning for two weeks in mid to late October, and this will include spending about 4 hours at a stretch seated outdoors mostly during evening to nightime hours on at least several and perhaps as many as half a dozen or more nights. For someone whose home is in the Mojave Desert, I'm thinking that packing a light to medium jacket for that would be about right. Am I thinking sensibly?

I'm sure everybody complains about traffic anywhere there are at least two cars and one stop sign, and personal standards on that will vary depending on where you come from. I've spent a lot of time all over Los Angeles, including central LA & "The Hood" among other places, so I'm not exactly virginal about it. I came in to StL from the west (and left that way) and during my time there was shacked up at a hotel in the area known as Maryland Heights or Westport, and came into the city daily from there. From that direction my take on it is driving starts to become a bit annoying (and a little weird) once you get to about Pagedale which is well before the technical city limit of St. Louis and about eight miles from downtown proper and the river, and gets downright "arggh!" and "eeek!" and "OMFG duck!" when you get east of Kingshighway about four to five miles or so from the river. And that the farther suburbs, at least what I saw of them to the west, are exactly the same identical suburb as all suburbs everywhere and it would be impossible to tell the difference from suburban Portland or Denver or Phoenix or Las Vegas or St. Louis or for that matter probably a gated cul-de-sac development on Neptune which would no doubt be named "Whispering Pines" or somesuch drivel, and have an equally annoying Nazi-wannabe homeowner's association to dictate the exact permissible height of every blade of grass allowed to exist within it and to immediately strangle any barking dog or stray cat. But that's just IMO & YMMV & yadda, yadda, yadda.

Quote: DrawingDead

In my visits I was there twice during the season apparently known to locals as: "The Steam Bath." A little more so in StL than KC, at least when I was there. But I'll be returning for two weeks in mid to late October, and this will include spending about 4 hours at a stretch seated outdoors mostly during evening to nightime hours on at least several and perhaps as many as half a dozen or more nights. For someone whose home is in the Mojave Desert, I'm thinking that packing a light to medium jacket for that would be about right. Am I thinking sensibly?

I'm sure everybody complains about traffic anywhere there are at least two cars and one stop sign, and personal standards on that will vary depending on where you come from. I've spent a lot of time all over Los Angeles, including central LA & "The Hood" among other places, so I'm not exactly virginal about it. I came in to StL from the west (and left that way) and during my time there was shacked up at a hotel in the area known as Maryland Heights or Westport, and came into the city daily from there. From that direction my take on it is driving starts to become a bit annoying (and a little weird) once you get to about Pagedale which is well before the technical city limit of St. Louis and about eight miles from downtown proper and the river, and gets downright "arggh!" and "eeek!" and "OMFG duck!" when you get east of Kingshighway about four to five miles or so from the river. And that the farther suburbs, at least what I saw of them to the west, are exactly the same identical suburb as all suburbs everywhere and it would be impossible to tell the difference from suburban Portland or Denver or Phoenix or Las Vegas or St. Louis or for that matter probably a gated cul-de-sac development on Neptune which would no doubt be named "Whispering Pines" or somesuch drivel, and have an equally annoying Nazi-wannabe homeowner's association to dictate the exact permissible height of every blade of grass allowed to exist within it and to immediately strangle any barking dog or stray cat. But that's just IMO & YMMV & yadda, yadda, yadda.

I would expect highs in the 70's, evening games into the low 60's for late October, maybe even down in the 50's. Obviously, I could be wrong. Just past times in the area to go on.

Drawing Dead had an Annual HOA Mtg last weekend too? Small world.

Ugh just nonsense